Making A Murderer ***CONTAINS SPOILERS***
Discussion
I don't think it is that simple.
I think the whole thing is so fdup up it is hard to tell the truth anymore.
I mean it looks like the police 'framed' him, but was he guilty and just no evidence. I mean someone burning the body has a good understanding of forensics.
I think he is guilty, but should be retried and the nephew released and all done from scratch again.
I think the whole thing is so fdup up it is hard to tell the truth anymore.
I mean it looks like the police 'framed' him, but was he guilty and just no evidence. I mean someone burning the body has a good understanding of forensics.
I think he is guilty, but should be retried and the nephew released and all done from scratch again.
i'll start....
... why go to all the hassle of cleaning up and burning the body when..
.. he just left the car in relative plain sight... why not crush the car like he burnt the body ??
... the blood in the car was obviously "swabbed" on... even I can see that!
... the cop that called in the license plate 2 days before
... everything else.
... why go to all the hassle of cleaning up and burning the body when..
.. he just left the car in relative plain sight... why not crush the car like he burnt the body ??
... the blood in the car was obviously "swabbed" on... even I can see that!
... the cop that called in the license plate 2 days before
... everything else.
Edited by Lynchie999 on Thursday 31st December 10:36
Not a bad little article....
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwieselman/making-a-m...
The discussion below int he comments is good also.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwieselman/making-a-m...
The discussion below int he comments is good also.
Binge watched the whole thing over about 36 hours. Extraordinary. Either the documentary is exceptionally partial and omitting some key facts or there should have at least have been an appeal allowed for both.
The first lawyer for the kid was like something straight out of central casting. He deserves a good kicking.
The first lawyer for the kid was like something straight out of central casting. He deserves a good kicking.
My biggest issues are
The media were used to make him guilty long before the trial.
If she was shot in the garage there would be plenty of evidance to back that up, not one bullet.
And mostly that the jury found him "guilty beyond reasonable doubt", and from what was presented and on the internet about him, I just cannot see how you would be able to do that.
I was also very uncomfortable at how his nephews cefession was obtained.
You can only hope that their is more to the story than is shown, so that two men aren't in prison for a crime they didn't commit and a justice system that failed them.
As an aside I felt very sorry for his law team who seemed genuine.
The media were used to make him guilty long before the trial.
If she was shot in the garage there would be plenty of evidance to back that up, not one bullet.
And mostly that the jury found him "guilty beyond reasonable doubt", and from what was presented and on the internet about him, I just cannot see how you would be able to do that.
I was also very uncomfortable at how his nephews cefession was obtained.
You can only hope that their is more to the story than is shown, so that two men aren't in prison for a crime they didn't commit and a justice system that failed them.
As an aside I felt very sorry for his law team who seemed genuine.
I have to admit I was waiting for the twist near the end that some evidence had been found to link Teresa's murder to her brother.
It also seems very wrong that there can be no retrial under the current system without new evidence coming to light. Lets hope a new method of detecting EDTA is found because as far as I can tell that is Stevens best shot at a retrial. Other than some email or phone record showing some sort of collusion or conspiracy.
I also thought the emails written by the special investigator that Len hired on the Brendan case were extremely telling. Obviously there is a religious resonance to him and almost certainly the community and I think the Averys were on the wrong side of that.
I can't see how either Avery are going to get a fair trial whilst it stays within the Wisconsin DOJ.
It also seems very wrong that there can be no retrial under the current system without new evidence coming to light. Lets hope a new method of detecting EDTA is found because as far as I can tell that is Stevens best shot at a retrial. Other than some email or phone record showing some sort of collusion or conspiracy.
I also thought the emails written by the special investigator that Len hired on the Brendan case were extremely telling. Obviously there is a religious resonance to him and almost certainly the community and I think the Averys were on the wrong side of that.
I can't see how either Avery are going to get a fair trial whilst it stays within the Wisconsin DOJ.
There are so many questions that need to be answered to prove their guilt, in my opinion.
-How can they say the girl was tied to the bed but there was no sign of this?
-How can she have been stabbed in the bedroom but there is no blood?
-Apart from one bullet fragment, how can there be no other evidence she was shot in the garage?
-How can the car key just turn up?
-Why was the car left in plain sight at the crime scene when it could have been disposed of?
-Why were the Manitowoc cops anywhere near the salvage yard months after the initial investigation?
-Whilst circumstantial, surely any logical person would be swayed by the blood argument, especially the hole in Avery's blood sample from the 1985 case that anyone from the Sheriff's department could have accessed?
-How can a confession that was taken whilst Massey was under stress be used, especially as he gave a different statement on the stand?
-Why didn't his lawyers let them use the whole video where Massey tells his mother that the cops got inside his head and essentially confused him?
-Why were there inconsistencies from the jury on their verdicts?
-Were the jury unprejudiced? I find it nigh on impossible to believe that Avery could have had a fair trial with normal members of the public as the jury after the hatchet job he received before the trial.
It's a very muddy case, although I am not a lawyer, but the way it was presented made me feel very uncomfortable about the enforcement of the law by the various people involved in this case. I half expected them to both get off and then it turn out it was her younger brother and that ex boyfriend (the guy who figured her phone password and was near the salvage yard when the car was found) who had done it and then framed Avery, and Massey just got sucked up in to it.
It was clear that the DA, the Sheriff's Office and Massey's initial defence team all had a huge problem with the Avery family. That sort of bias is troubling when you expect that people enforcing and upholding the law are supposed to be impartial. Whilst Avery may not have been framed, I cannot see how it was proven beyond all reasonable doubt he was guilty when you think about the lack of blood or sign of murder anywhere it was alleged to have taken place. Whilst I have to assume the documentary was biased in the favour of Avery/Massey, there were times the documentary made them look guilty as well, so I'd love to know what we didn't see that swayed the jury towards their guilty verdicts.
A very thought provoking documentary and, without a shadow of a doubt, the best documentary series I have ever watched. We did it in one sitting!
-How can they say the girl was tied to the bed but there was no sign of this?
-How can she have been stabbed in the bedroom but there is no blood?
-Apart from one bullet fragment, how can there be no other evidence she was shot in the garage?
-How can the car key just turn up?
-Why was the car left in plain sight at the crime scene when it could have been disposed of?
-Why were the Manitowoc cops anywhere near the salvage yard months after the initial investigation?
-Whilst circumstantial, surely any logical person would be swayed by the blood argument, especially the hole in Avery's blood sample from the 1985 case that anyone from the Sheriff's department could have accessed?
-How can a confession that was taken whilst Massey was under stress be used, especially as he gave a different statement on the stand?
-Why didn't his lawyers let them use the whole video where Massey tells his mother that the cops got inside his head and essentially confused him?
-Why were there inconsistencies from the jury on their verdicts?
-Were the jury unprejudiced? I find it nigh on impossible to believe that Avery could have had a fair trial with normal members of the public as the jury after the hatchet job he received before the trial.
It's a very muddy case, although I am not a lawyer, but the way it was presented made me feel very uncomfortable about the enforcement of the law by the various people involved in this case. I half expected them to both get off and then it turn out it was her younger brother and that ex boyfriend (the guy who figured her phone password and was near the salvage yard when the car was found) who had done it and then framed Avery, and Massey just got sucked up in to it.
It was clear that the DA, the Sheriff's Office and Massey's initial defence team all had a huge problem with the Avery family. That sort of bias is troubling when you expect that people enforcing and upholding the law are supposed to be impartial. Whilst Avery may not have been framed, I cannot see how it was proven beyond all reasonable doubt he was guilty when you think about the lack of blood or sign of murder anywhere it was alleged to have taken place. Whilst I have to assume the documentary was biased in the favour of Avery/Massey, there were times the documentary made them look guilty as well, so I'd love to know what we didn't see that swayed the jury towards their guilty verdicts.
A very thought provoking documentary and, without a shadow of a doubt, the best documentary series I have ever watched. We did it in one sitting!
Edited by BrabusMog on Saturday 2nd January 09:28
On the point that there was no blood, after reading Reddit, I found that one of the omissions from the documentary was that the stabbing and shooting actually happened in the garage (hence the focus on that building), as told by Brendan, but again, lead to those answers by the detectives. Brendan then goes on to say that him and Steve did clean the garage, with bleach and even gave the detectives a pair of his trousers stained with bleach.
However, there are a number of holes in this story.
1 - We would have to believe that Steve and Brendan meticulously cleaned the garage and then put back, or missed, the spent bullet casings.
2 - The bullet found was clean, but found in amongst the dust and dirt under the compressor.
3 - To stain trousers they would have had to use chlorine based bleach. Chlorine based bleach actually leaves traces of blood that can be detected using a particular test (that the detectives should have done by I don't believe they did), this test involves using a chemical then a special light which makes traces of blood show up. If S & B really used chlorine based bleach for their clean up, then, having done this test the garage would have lit up like a Christmas tree. Only if S & B had used an Oxygen based bleach would they have removed all traces of blood - however Oxygen based bleach does not stain clothes.
However, there are a number of holes in this story.
1 - We would have to believe that Steve and Brendan meticulously cleaned the garage and then put back, or missed, the spent bullet casings.
2 - The bullet found was clean, but found in amongst the dust and dirt under the compressor.
3 - To stain trousers they would have had to use chlorine based bleach. Chlorine based bleach actually leaves traces of blood that can be detected using a particular test (that the detectives should have done by I don't believe they did), this test involves using a chemical then a special light which makes traces of blood show up. If S & B really used chlorine based bleach for their clean up, then, having done this test the garage would have lit up like a Christmas tree. Only if S & B had used an Oxygen based bleach would they have removed all traces of blood - however Oxygen based bleach does not stain clothes.
I'm really confused then. I knew the shooting had allegedly taken place in the garage, but Massey's statement was that he stabbed her and cut her throat when she was tied up in the bed. And then (I think) she was strangled when she didn't die from having her throat cut.
It's very hard to know what to believe, but surely there is enough doubt to make the verdicts unsafe?
It's very hard to know what to believe, but surely there is enough doubt to make the verdicts unsafe?
Absolutely there should have been reasonable doubt, enough so that there wasn't a conviction on any count. The problem Steve has now is that I believe he's exhausted all his appeal options and the only one he has left is if new evidence is found.
I can only hope that the massive interest this documentary has brought to the case helps find him some other option.
I can only hope that the massive interest this documentary has brought to the case helps find him some other option.
jammy_basturd said:
Absolutely there should have been reasonable doubt, enough so that there wasn't a conviction on any count. The problem Steve has now is that I believe he's exhausted all his appeal options and the only one he has left is if new evidence is found.
I can only hope that the massive interest this documentary has brought to the case helps find him some other option.
Apparently Anonymous have said they will do what they can to get a retrial, at least that's what my missus said to me this morning I can only hope that the massive interest this documentary has brought to the case helps find him some other option.
I reminded her they were going to take care of ISIS and it doesn't look like they've done that yet...BrabusMog said:
Apparently Anonymous have said they will do what they can to get a retrial, at least that's what my missus said to me this morning I reminded her they were going to take care of ISIS and it doesn't look like they've done that yet...
I read they have "hacked some stuff" and found new emails between detectives. I reminded her they were going to take care of ISIS and it doesn't look like they've done that yet...Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff