Making A Murderer ***CONTAINS SPOILERS***
Discussion
Finished watching S2 last night. It's a pretty depressing indictment on small town America one way or another.
Zellner was pretty scathing (but not unreasonably) about Dassey's team (Nyrider et al). Nyrider kind of had her arse handed to her in the En Banc hearing compared to the state lawyer.
Some of the basics still don't add up for me. If you have a junk yard, car crusher and any number of years of experience in dismantling and destroying vehicles, would you really park the Rav 4 on your land and prop a couple of branches against it? If you were burning the body, you'd surely have that car ready to be turned into baked bean tins pretty swiftly.
Where was the evidence of *any* activity in Avery's hovel? If the s
t they claim went down actually happened, where's the blood? If the Averys were stupid enough to burn the remains in a pit 100 yards from the alleged murder scene, how were they clever enough to clean up the scene?
Very strange.
Zellner was pretty scathing (but not unreasonably) about Dassey's team (Nyrider et al). Nyrider kind of had her arse handed to her in the En Banc hearing compared to the state lawyer.
Some of the basics still don't add up for me. If you have a junk yard, car crusher and any number of years of experience in dismantling and destroying vehicles, would you really park the Rav 4 on your land and prop a couple of branches against it? If you were burning the body, you'd surely have that car ready to be turned into baked bean tins pretty swiftly.
Where was the evidence of *any* activity in Avery's hovel? If the s
t they claim went down actually happened, where's the blood? If the Averys were stupid enough to burn the remains in a pit 100 yards from the alleged murder scene, how were they clever enough to clean up the scene? Very strange.
All I can add is that murderers can do some very strange things in the immediate aftermath of their killing.
I suspect it is because, general speaking, they are not in their sane mind when they commit the attack and shortly thereafter.
The guy who killed Meredith Kercher in her house fled the scene, but not before stopping to take a dump and not flush the toilet, for example.
I suspect it is because, general speaking, they are not in their sane mind when they commit the attack and shortly thereafter.
The guy who killed Meredith Kercher in her house fled the scene, but not before stopping to take a dump and not flush the toilet, for example.
trooperiziz said:
youngsyr said:
All I can add is that murderers can do some very strange things in the immediate aftermath of their killing.
"Nothing further to add your honour, the prosecution rests""Sounds good to me! Lock him up boys!"
"That's a bit odd your honour, I wouldn't have done that. "
"Oh most definitely, case dismissed!"
Finished watching season 2 at the weekend, completely gobsmacked. Anyone who thinks he definately did it need to give their head a wobble.
There is absolutely no foresic evidence to back up the confession:
-No TH's blood in the trailer, the bed, the bedroom, the filthy garage or the handcuffs. You can clearly see in shots the place is thick in dust, including the top of the headboard. There is stuff everywhere. He would have to be pretty good at cleaning blood and keeping the dirt.
-The key found in the trailer is clearly the spare key. It looks brand new and has a different keyring on to the one TH is pictured holding elsewhere.
-The blood in the car is not consistant with a cut finger. I have cut my finger many times removing car trim etc and it smudges all over the place. The blood next the key is obvious to anyone looking at it that its been smeared on with something. The blood on the rear arch insides is clearly a single drip. If you have cut your finger it will be all over the wheel, gear stick, seats, doors etc. It isnt.
-The only blood found in the trailer is SA's on a part of the floor (either bathroom or kitchen), which looks like a drip from a nasty cut, backing up SA's theory from the beginning that he cut his finger, bled, went out and then when he checked the next morning his bathroom sink was clean.
-The SA stalking TH/towel incident as far as I can see was never proven. TH had SA's personal number so would assume happy to do hustle shots. I could have missed this though so happy to be proven wrong.
-The calling in of the plates on the same day the trucker told the same copper he'd seen the car is blatently obvious.
I could go on for hours and hours.
People talk about SA threatening to kill etc and obviously being in trouble for similar things before. However, this is people judging him from a different world. He is Grade A hillbilly; Not that intelligent, obviously struggled with emotions and anger and lashes out threatening harm to kill etc. Think of your average council estate chav who threatens this and that and to "get the boys" etc. Does that make them a murderer and rapist? Not necessarily. Also this same uintelligent hillbilly has kept a consistant story from the get go. He isnt clever enough to lie consistantly for this long.
There is absolutely no foresic evidence to back up the confession:
-No TH's blood in the trailer, the bed, the bedroom, the filthy garage or the handcuffs. You can clearly see in shots the place is thick in dust, including the top of the headboard. There is stuff everywhere. He would have to be pretty good at cleaning blood and keeping the dirt.
-The key found in the trailer is clearly the spare key. It looks brand new and has a different keyring on to the one TH is pictured holding elsewhere.
-The blood in the car is not consistant with a cut finger. I have cut my finger many times removing car trim etc and it smudges all over the place. The blood next the key is obvious to anyone looking at it that its been smeared on with something. The blood on the rear arch insides is clearly a single drip. If you have cut your finger it will be all over the wheel, gear stick, seats, doors etc. It isnt.
-The only blood found in the trailer is SA's on a part of the floor (either bathroom or kitchen), which looks like a drip from a nasty cut, backing up SA's theory from the beginning that he cut his finger, bled, went out and then when he checked the next morning his bathroom sink was clean.
-The SA stalking TH/towel incident as far as I can see was never proven. TH had SA's personal number so would assume happy to do hustle shots. I could have missed this though so happy to be proven wrong.
-The calling in of the plates on the same day the trucker told the same copper he'd seen the car is blatently obvious.
I could go on for hours and hours.
People talk about SA threatening to kill etc and obviously being in trouble for similar things before. However, this is people judging him from a different world. He is Grade A hillbilly; Not that intelligent, obviously struggled with emotions and anger and lashes out threatening harm to kill etc. Think of your average council estate chav who threatens this and that and to "get the boys" etc. Does that make them a murderer and rapist? Not necessarily. Also this same uintelligent hillbilly has kept a consistant story from the get go. He isnt clever enough to lie consistantly for this long.
SA refused to admit to the rape that he originally went to prison for, even though he would get parole if he admitted it. He was steadfast in his denials all the way through his sentence, meaning he served more time in prison rather than admit it and get out and start rebuilding his life.
He also admitted all his crimes previously at the first opportunity, albeit non of them were on the same scale. I do get the feeling that he would have admitted it if he’d done it. He has zero form for lying to the cops.
He also admitted all his crimes previously at the first opportunity, albeit non of them were on the same scale. I do get the feeling that he would have admitted it if he’d done it. He has zero form for lying to the cops.
WilliamWoollard said:
SA refused to admit to the rape that he originally went to prison for, even though he would get parole if he admitted it. He was steadfast in his denials all the way through his sentence, meaning he served more time in prison rather than admit it and get out and start rebuilding his life.
He also admitted all his crimes previously at the first opportunity, albeit non of them were on the same scale. I do get the feeling that he would have admitted it if he’d done it. He has zero form for lying to the cops.
That's just speculation about his character (as shown to you by Netflix) though. He also admitted all his crimes previously at the first opportunity, albeit non of them were on the same scale. I do get the feeling that he would have admitted it if he’d done it. He has zero form for lying to the cops.
The facts are that Avery was stalking the victim and trying to hide the fact that he specifically requested her to come to his property on the day of the murder.
In addition, her remains were found on his property and he was the last to see her alive.
No one had any motive to kill her.
Those are all particularly damning, but I agree not absolutely conclusive.
MYOB said:
youngsyr said:
and he was the last to see her alive.
We don't know that for a fact do we? He was the last person known to have seen her.
However no one has claimed to have seen her after she arrived at Avery's property, despite her having other appointments that afternoon and at least a couple of people saw her arrive there.
Avery claims he saw her leave in her car, so if he wasn't actually the last to see her, you would have to conclude that someone else killed her almost immediately after she left his property, then somehow managed to get her remains and car back onto Avery's property without him noticing.
Oh and they would have needed to obtain a fresh sample of his blood (still without him knowing) whilst they were there to plant in the car.
Firstly, no-one is going to admit seeing her after leaving Steven's property as they would be in the frame. But didn't a witness report seeing her car drive away? I can't recall the details.
Were her remains found at his property? I thought that the few bones found were not proven to be from Theresa? Again, I can't recall as it's been a while since I saw the series.
As for his blood sample. There was a theory that he left blood in his sink after cutting himself.
Were her remains found at his property? I thought that the few bones found were not proven to be from Theresa? Again, I can't recall as it's been a while since I saw the series.
As for his blood sample. There was a theory that he left blood in his sink after cutting himself.
Edited by MYOB on Wednesday 16th January 00:08
Edited by MYOB on Wednesday 16th January 00:09
We're going over old ground here.
From memory the only person to claim they saw her leave was Avery himself.
I believe someone else said they might have seen her car, but not her and it wasn't proven either way.
The remains were hers, but were only partial.
Avery claims he cut himself in his bathroom and blood s left on his sink. Then someone broke into his trailer almost immediately, didn't leave any evidence of being there, but somehow knew the blood would be there, where it was and had the ability to remove it and plant it without anyone noticing.
Oh, and no blood was found on the sink thereafter.
Hopefully now you can see why I think he is by far the most likely culprit, although I agree the case against him had serious problems.
From memory the only person to claim they saw her leave was Avery himself.
I believe someone else said they might have seen her car, but not her and it wasn't proven either way.
The remains were hers, but were only partial.
Avery claims he cut himself in his bathroom and blood s left on his sink. Then someone broke into his trailer almost immediately, didn't leave any evidence of being there, but somehow knew the blood would be there, where it was and had the ability to remove it and plant it without anyone noticing.
Oh, and no blood was found on the sink thereafter.
Hopefully now you can see why I think he is by far the most likely culprit, although I agree the case against him had serious problems.
youngsyr said:
That's just speculation about his character (as shown to you by Netflix) though.
The facts are that Avery was stalking the victim and trying to hide the fact that he specifically requested her to come to his property on the day of the murder.
In addition, her remains were found on his property and he was the last to see her alive.
No one had any motive to kill her.
Those are all particularly damning, but I agree not absolutely conclusive.
I’m glad there is a counter point of view on this thread as it gives the opportunity for debate. I don’t know if SA did this but as I look at it more, I see enough doubt to think he would not be convicted if tried now. The facts are that Avery was stalking the victim and trying to hide the fact that he specifically requested her to come to his property on the day of the murder.
In addition, her remains were found on his property and he was the last to see her alive.
No one had any motive to kill her.
Those are all particularly damning, but I agree not absolutely conclusive.
It’s a few things for me
1) lack of her blood in his trailer which given he was supposed to have tied her up, slit her throat I don’t see how that can be true
2) the burn is something I don’t understand well but a body needs fuel to burn and the burn would need to go on a long time at a very high heat
3) calling in the license plate and it appearing later on the Avery property. Not accusing the police of the crime but something has not been explained. Vehicle was also seen off the Avery site after she disappeared
There are other things and I don’t have the answer as to guilt but the prosecution version of events does not add up to me
Not forgetting the fact that the prosecution in BDs case managed to convict him based on a completely different scenario than SA. How on earth two prosecutions (by the exact same people) for the same case can succeed with such vastly different scenarios is mind boggling. According to the prosecutors she was killed by different people, with a different method, in a different location in each trial. I just don't see how that can be right.
The jiffle king said:
I’m glad there is a counter point of view on this thread as it gives the opportunity for debate. I don’t know if SA did this but as I look at it more, I see enough doubt to think he would not be convicted if tried now.
It’s a few things for me
1) lack of her blood in his trailer which given he was supposed to have tied her up, slit her throat I don’t see how that can be true
2) the burn is something I don’t understand well but a body needs fuel to burn and the burn would need to go on a long time at a very high heat
3) calling in the license plate and it appearing later on the Avery property. Not accusing the police of the crime but something has not been explained. Vehicle was also seen off the Avery site after she disappeared
There are other things and I don’t have the answer as to guilt but the prosecution version of events does not add up to me
Ultimately I agree that there are significant problems with both convictions, but someone definitely killed her and SA is by far the most likely culprit IMO. It’s a few things for me
1) lack of her blood in his trailer which given he was supposed to have tied her up, slit her throat I don’t see how that can be true
2) the burn is something I don’t understand well but a body needs fuel to burn and the burn would need to go on a long time at a very high heat
3) calling in the license plate and it appearing later on the Avery property. Not accusing the police of the crime but something has not been explained. Vehicle was also seen off the Avery site after she disappeared
There are other things and I don’t have the answer as to guilt but the prosecution version of events does not add up to me
As for BD, I suspect he at least knew something about it and might possibly have been dragged in to part of it by SA, but that is even more shakey than SA's Chinnock and should be over turned.
What I do know for sure is that the Netflix series on it is far from objective.
Edited by youngsyr on Wednesday 16th January 11:15
youngsyr said:
WilliamWoollard said:
SA refused to admit to the rape that he originally went to prison for, even though he would get parole if he admitted it. He was steadfast in his denials all the way through his sentence, meaning he served more time in prison rather than admit it and get out and start rebuilding his life.
He also admitted all his crimes previously at the first opportunity, albeit non of them were on the same scale. I do get the feeling that he would have admitted it if he’d done it. He has zero form for lying to the cops.
That's just speculation about his character (as shown to you by Netflix) though. He also admitted all his crimes previously at the first opportunity, albeit non of them were on the same scale. I do get the feeling that he would have admitted it if he’d done it. He has zero form for lying to the cops.
The facts are that Avery was stalking the victim and trying to hide the fact that he specifically requested her to come to his property on the day of the murder.
In addition, her remains were found on his property and he was the last to see her alive.
No one had any motive to kill her.
Those are all particularly damning, but I agree not absolutely conclusive.
Also if a plumber for example goes to a job say on a farm and he does job says good bye and next day turns out the person was killed... he was the last person to see them apart from the person or persons who killed them.....
Point is we don't know who the last person was to see her as she is apparently dead..... (no proper body ever found...)
It is impossible to say who the last person was, unless i am being dense?
Edited by ape x on Wednesday 16th January 16:10
Edited by ape x on Wednesday 16th January 16:11
Centurion07 said:
If that's true (that bones found at the quarry were never tested, but were handed back to the victim's family, presumably as her last remains without ever telling the defense), then he'll go free won't he?How can he possibly have had a reasonable defense at trial (or have one in the future) if key evidence has (probably unwittingly) been destroyed?
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