Porton Down, BBC4
Discussion
LambShank said:
Well someone have a go explaining it to us civvy morons.
I'm interested how they work.
OK, sorry for the long post...I'm interested how they work.
The G Agents (Nerve Agents) were developed by the Germans during WW2, these being Tabun (GA), Sarin (GB) and Soman (GD). All are organo-phosphates and all derive from the same reactants and initial chemical pathways that result in pesticides such as DDT.
These organophosphates bind to methionine (an amino acid) in proteins via the sulphur-sulphur bond within the amino acid. In so doing they alter the conformation (3D shape) of the protein. If that protein happens to be an enzyme, altering its conformation renders the enzyme incapacitated and permanently inactive.
Simplistically, during normal neuro-transmission a potential difference (voltage) flows along the surface of the nerve owing to a Sodium/Potassium ion pump across the cell membrane. When this potential difference reaches the end of the nerve (and its connection with the next nerve - ie the synapse) it is of too small a magnitude to 'jump' the gap. Thus a chemical neurotransmitter is secreted to diffuse across the synapse and stimulate the next nerve to 'fire'. Such neurotransmitters include nor-adrenaline and dopamine in the brain, as well as acetylcholine in the peripheral nervous system. Given that these neurotransmitters cause nerves to fire, there is a feedback loop system within the synapse using an enzyme to mop up the neurotransmiiter so as to prevent excessive neuro stimulation.
In the case of the peripheral nervous system the enzyme involved is acetylcholine-esterase. The enzyme contains methionine so the G Agents will bind permanently to it and thus destroy its capabilty. Nerve agent poisoning, therefore, causes over stimulation of the nerves (and thus contraction of the muscles) resulting in pin pointing of the pupils, drooling, involuntary urination and defaecation, as well as severe muscle twitching. Essentially (aside from the asphyxiation caused by contraction of the diaphragm) death results from the fact that the body runs out of energy.
G Agents are essentially low-viscosity, high volatility, odourless, colourless liquids (although Soman apparently has a slight smell of camphor) that vaporise readily in air. In liquid form they will pass through unprotected skin, in gaseous form however the route into the body is via the airways.
Given that they vaporise so quickly and disperse readily (as well as the fact that they are readily degraded via heat and UV), G Agents are classed as 'Non-Persistent'.
In order to deploy them one would use artillery shells or rockets, mines, or even aircraft with spray tanks. The idea being to deploy the agent as a liquid where it is at its most lethal. There will thus be 2 phases to any G Agent attack - the liquid hazard (which can be defeated with protective clothing (the 'Noddy Suit' used by the UK Armed Forces, overboots and gloves) as well as the Respirator. Once the liquid hazard has dispersed the vapour hazard can be defeated merely by wearing a respirator.
The point about Chemical Warfare (CW) is that it is very good at denying or supressing large areas for (relatively) little effort when compared to conventional munitions, since operating in a CW environment is difficult; it is physically tiring to have to wear the kit, normal bodily functions become difficult (eg eating and drinking) and there is the psychological fatigue / fear factor. Targets would include high value units such as Airfields, Fighter Contol radar sites, Unit Headquarters and so on.
However, unlike the Blister Agents such as the Sulphur and Nitrogen Mustards, the fact that G Agents are non-persistent means that to deny, say, an airfield for any length of time will require follow-up attacks.
And this is where we get to the V Agents such as VX. Unlike the G Agents, the V Agents are of much higher viscosity and much lower volatility - they are described as being 'oily liquids' similar in viscosity to a heavy motor or gear oil. While some, such as VX have an increased lethality (LD50) compared to say Sarin, by far the most important factor in their lethality is that they are 'thickened' and therefore less likely to vaporise. Ergo they are described as 'Persistent Agents'. Additionally V Agents may be (would be) further thickened with a polymer such that they become jelly-like - just like the Evo-Stik contact adhesive I refered to earlier. In this case it becomes extremely difficult (nigh on impossible) to decontaminate things like protective clothing. Furthermore, given the persistent nature, follow-up attacks would not be required and areas would be denied by these Agents for extremely long periods of time (years).
Don Veloci said:
Regarding Holywood science - Any fact or is it total BS regarding the film depicting a direct injection to the heart as some sort of counter? 
That's Hollywood. However the immediate action response to nerve agent contamination is to inject a mixture of atropine (which blocks the acetylcholine neuroreceptors), oxime (which interferes with the nerve agent binding to acetylcholine-esterase) and diazepam (to reduce fear and anxiety). Miltarily, troops would carry 3 autoject 'pens' and you would inject into thigh muscle (with up to a fourth dose being administered under medical supervision).
Interestingly during GW1 when the SCUDs hut Israel there were initial reports of nerve agent poisoning. In fact it was atropine poisoning owing to people prophylactically injecting atropine with no nerve agent exposure. Where nerve agent causes pin-pointing of the pupils, the dead give away for atropine neurotoxicity is the dilation of the pupils.
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Thursday 30th June 19:22
TEKNOPUG said:
That was what I took from the programme.
£500m budget, huge sprawliing site with lots of new buildings which they couldn't possibly comment upon.
Just to detroy old munitions and analyse suspect samples
I struggle to believe that all research is purely "defensive". I assume though that it's a place where all secret military projects can be safely tested and not specifically chemical/biological ones?
They just need all that space for the massive cannabis farm they've got there £500m budget, huge sprawliing site with lots of new buildings which they couldn't possibly comment upon.
Just to detroy old munitions and analyse suspect samples
I struggle to believe that all research is purely "defensive". I assume though that it's a place where all secret military projects can be safely tested and not specifically chemical/biological ones?
It was a very good show, and tied in nicely with a similar programme the BBC showed last year I think about Sellafield (or another Nuclear Power Station), both detailed and a bit scary when you consider the effects of the NBC gubbins.
During my time in the RAF I covered the usual NBC drills, and the few years on the NARO team showed me just how tedious the decontamination drills were should you get radioactive or chemical agents on your NBC kit - suffice to say though if it had been the real deal or something like VX I doubt I'd be rushing to take my kit off without several decontaminations!
During my time in the RAF I covered the usual NBC drills, and the few years on the NARO team showed me just how tedious the decontamination drills were should you get radioactive or chemical agents on your NBC kit - suffice to say though if it had been the real deal or something like VX I doubt I'd be rushing to take my kit off without several decontaminations!
CrutyRammers said:
gareth h said:
MrAndyW said:
They always tried to bribe us with a months pay or 28 days leave.
RAF lads to clever for that, well most of them anyway.
We always told they were trying to find a cure for the common cold, yeah ok then,
I lived in Andover and there were stories back in the 1970s that they would pay for you to test cures for the common coldRAF lads to clever for that, well most of them anyway.
We always told they were trying to find a cure for the common cold, yeah ok then,
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
LambShank said:
Well someone have a go explaining it to us civvy morons.
I'm interested how they work.
OK, sorry for the long post...I'm interested how they work.
The G Agents (Nerve Agents) were developed by the Germans during WW2, these being Tabun (GA), Sarin (GB) and Soman (GD). All are organo-phosphates and all derive from the same reactants and initial chemical pathways that result in pesticides such as DDT.
These organophosphates bind to methionine (an amino acid) in proteins via the sulphur-sulphur bond within the amino acid. In so doing they alter the conformation (3D shape) of the protein. If that protein happens to be an enzyme, altering its conformation renders the enzyme incapacitated and permanently inactive.
Simplistically, during normal neuro-transmission a potential difference (voltage) flows along the surface of the nerve owing to a Sodium/Potassium ion pump across the cell membrane. When this potential difference reaches the end of the nerve (and its connection with the next nerve - ie the synapse) it is of too small a magnitude to 'jump' the gap. Thus a chemical neurotransmitter is secreted to diffuse across the synapse and stimulate the next nerve to 'fire'. Such neurotransmitters include nor-adrenaline and dopamine in the brain, as well as acetylcholine in the peripheral nervous system. Given that these neurotransmitters cause nerves to fire, there is a feedback loop system within the synapse using an enzyme to mop up the neurotransmiiter so as to prevent excessive neuro stimulation.
In the case of the peripheral nervous system the enzyme involved is acetylcholine-esterase. The enzyme contains methionine so the G Agents will bind permanently to it and thus destroy its capabilty. Nerve agent poisoning, therefore, causes over stimulation of the nerves (and thus contraction of the muscles) resulting in pin pointing of the pupils, drooling, involuntary urination and defaecation, as well as severe muscle twitching. Essentially (aside from the asphyxiation caused by contraction of the diaphragm) death results from the fact that the body runs out of energy.
G Agents are essentially low-viscosity, high volatility, odourless, colourless liquids (although Soman apparently has a slight smell of camphor) that vaporise readily in air. In liquid form they will pass through unprotected skin, in gaseous form however the route into the body is via the airways.
Given that they vaporise so quickly and disperse readily (as well as the fact that they are readily degraded via heat and UV), G Agents are classed as 'Non-Persistent'.
In order to deploy them one would use artillery shells or rockets, mines, or even aircraft with spray tanks. The idea being to deploy the agent as a liquid where it is at its most lethal. There will thus be 2 phases to any G Agent attack - the liquid hazard (which can be defeated with protective clothing (the 'Noddy Suit' used by the UK Armed Forces, overboots and gloves) as well as the Respirator. Once the liquid hazard has dispersed the vapour hazard can be defeated merely by wearing a respirator.
The point about Chemical Warfare (CW) is that it is very good at denying or supressing large areas for (relatively) little effort when compared to conventional munitions, since operating in a CW environment is difficult; it is physically tiring to have to wear the kit, normal bodily functions become difficult (eg eating and drinking) and there is the psychological fatigue / fear factor. Targets would include high value units such as Airfields, Fighter Contol radar sites, Unit Headquarters and so on.
However, unlike the Blister Agents such as the Sulphur and Nitrogen Mustards, the fact that G Agents are non-persistent means that to deny, say, an airfield for any length of time will require follow-up attacks.
And this is where we get to the V Agents such as VX. Unlike the G Agents, the V Agents are of much higher viscosity and much lower volatility - they are described as being 'oily liquids' similar in viscosity to a heavy motor or gear oil. While some, such as VX have an increased lethality (LD50) compared to say Sarin, by far the most important factor in their lethality is that they are 'thickened' and therefore less likely to vaporise. Ergo they are described as 'Persistent Agents'. Additionally V Agents may be (would be) further thickened with a polymer such that they become jelly-like - just like the Evo-Stik contact adhesive I refered to earlier. In this case it becomes extremely difficult (nigh on impossible) to decontaminate things like protective clothing. Furthermore, given the persistent nature, follow-up attacks would not be required and areas would be denied by these Agents for extremely long periods of time (years).
TEKNOPUG said:
I struggle to believe that all research is purely "defensive". I assume though that it's a place where all secret military projects can be safely tested and not specifically chemical/biological ones?
Then I'm afraid you'd be wrong. While Porton used to carry out offensive Bioweapon and CW research, this ceased in the early 1960s.Those of us who have been in the Armed Forces can tell you of the serial improvements to the issued NBC kit (Nucear, Biological, Chemical) or CBRN (Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear) as a direct result of the work carried out by Porton Down.
For example the improvements in the 'Noddy Suits' - some might remember the Mk1 version had a detachable hood, the Mk 3 initally in green, later DPM, the Mk4 with its external pockets and attachments for 3 colour detector paper. Or the improvements in respirator technology from the S6 that I was initially issued with to the S10 (both single filter canister types) to the modern twin filter canister GSR respirator.
And don't even get me started on the AR5 Aircrew NBC Equipment Assemby...
When it comes to things like Nerve Agents, stockpiling more than 100g per year is outlawed by the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1993.
What most people don't realise is that, by far the largest occupant of the Porton Down site is the Civilian Public Health Laboratory (now known as PHE - Public Health England).
Edited by Ginetta G15 Girl on Thursday 30th June 17:37
Mothersruin said:
There's also a bunch of incapacitants design to not damage, per se, but to render troops unable to fight. Think spraying the battlefield with LSD (BZ) and everyone getting completely off their tits.
Indeed.However I wanted to concentrate on the Nerve Agents (G and V) and not go into Blister Agents (HD, HN), Blood Agents (CK, AC), Choking Agents (PS, DP, CG), Nettling Agents (CX) or Incapacitants (BZ, CS) else I would have been typing all afternoon!
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
TEKNOPUG said:
I struggle to believe that all research is purely "defensive". I assume though that it's a place where all secret military projects can be safely tested and not specifically chemical/biological ones?
Then I'm afraid you'd be wrong. While Porton used to carry out offensive ressearch, this ceased in the early 1960s.Edited by RizzoTheRat on Thursday 30th June 13:40
I was unfortunate enough to be bitten by a tick whilst in Canada and contract a disease called Rocky Mountain spotted fever.
My G.P. told me that samples of my blood were sent to Porton Down. I was intrigued as to why they wanted them, but hearing that the public health laboratory is there it now makes more sense.
My G.P. told me that samples of my blood were sent to Porton Down. I was intrigued as to why they wanted them, but hearing that the public health laboratory is there it now makes more sense.
Edited by PH5121 on Thursday 30th June 13:52
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Mothersruin said:
There's also a bunch of incapacitants design to not damage, per se, but to render troops unable to fight. Think spraying the battlefield with LSD (BZ) and everyone getting completely off their tits.
Indeed.However I wanted to concentrate on the Nerve Agents (G and V) and not go into Blister Agents (HD, HN), Blood Agents (CK, AC), Choking Agents (PS, DP, CG), Nettling Agents (CX) or Incapacitants (BZ, CS) else I would have been typing all afternoon!
LambShank said:
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Mothersruin said:
Unless you explain all the NBC types and delivery mechanisms, civvies won't understand.
I could but it would elicit the usual sexist PH attacks along the lines of how a female couldn't possibly know how NBC agents act.Ergo I CBA.
I'm interested how they work.
Smiler. said:
LambShank said:
Anyone watching?
A fascinating, yet ultimately ghoulish place.
Thanks for posting, totally agree. A fascinating, yet ultimately ghoulish place.
I wonder where that beach was where the gas shells come from?
I visited the Somme battlefields in July 1987. The iron harvest threw up piles of shells, stacked at the entrances to fields. Many were gas shells of both allies & German origin.
Stickyfinger said:
CrutyRammers said:
gareth h said:
MrAndyW said:
They always tried to bribe us with a months pay or 28 days leave.
RAF lads to clever for that, well most of them anyway.
We always told they were trying to find a cure for the common cold, yeah ok then,
I lived in Andover and there were stories back in the 1970s that they would pay for you to test cures for the common coldRAF lads to clever for that, well most of them anyway.
We always told they were trying to find a cure for the common cold, yeah ok then,
The NBC/CBRN training was the only thing that genuinely scared me to face for real, luckily not. Although I was never in heavy sustained combat being shot at was exciting and was exciting to put training to practice.
Even putting the suit on is a pain, the drills so time consuming there isnt much time left to do anythjng else. When we were issued the GSR we were told much about the S10 was a lie! Not sure if true
Even putting the suit on is a pain, the drills so time consuming there isnt much time left to do anythjng else. When we were issued the GSR we were told much about the S10 was a lie! Not sure if true
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
Miltarily, troops would carry 3 autoject 'pens' and you would inject into thigh muscle.
+1I was in a foreign army some 20 years ago. They taught us about chemical & biological warfare, & what to do with atropine etc., but there was nothing about nuclear warfare. I asked why & was told that its a waste of time teaching about it as we'd all be vaporised anyway.....
Anyway, the show was very interesting - way better than s
t like Top Gear 
I think Dr Mosely is some sort of masochist though - he's put parasites inside himself & all sorts of other stuff. Comes across as a good bloke - perhaps he should replace Chris Evans... Soz - wrong thread...
Cfnteabag said:
The NBC/CBRN training was the only thing that genuinely scared me to face for real,
As someone with a Biochemistry based degree, CW always scared the willies out of me.Cfnteabag said:
Even putting the suit on is a pain, the drills so time consuming there isnt much time left to do anything else.
The Ground equipment was bad enough, the Aircrew Equipment Assembly was a bloody nightmare (think rubber bag on head). We were required to do a full NBC Simulator ride (3 hrs) at a minimum of once per 90 days - in reality it worked out about once per month - with full donning and doffing drills. By the time you got to the sim you were a sweaty wreck. We were also required to fly in the stuff (with a safety pilot on board). it was really not fun.Cfnteabag said:
When we were issued the GSR we were told much about the S10 was a lie! Not sure if true
I've never used a GSR respirator, however the limitations of the S6 and S10 was that they would not provide 100% protection (more somewhere in the order of 95-98%). The first indication of nerve agent poisoning is pin-pointing of the pupils (leading to some double vision). Whilst this might be acceptable in a Rifleman, it isn't good enough for aircrew, hence the development of the AR5 (Aircrew Respirator Mk5) system. While really effective and while difficult to operate in in temperate regions it was wholly impracticable in the Gulf War(s) - during GW1 aircrew were collapsing from heat shock while carrying out their pre-flight walk around checks.For those that are interested, the AR5 above kneck assembly looks like this:
http://www.armyandoutdoors.co.nz/products/helicopt...
hidetheelephants said:
Smiler. said:
LambShank said:
Anyone watching?
A fascinating, yet ultimately ghoulish place.
Thanks for posting, totally agree. A fascinating, yet ultimately ghoulish place.
I wonder where that beach was where the gas shells come from?
I visited the Somme battlefields in July 1987. The iron harvest threw up piles of shells, stacked at the entrances to fields. Many were gas shells of both allies & German origin.
Ginetta G15 Girl said:
What most people don't realise is that, by far the largest occupant of the Porton Down site is the Civilian Public Health Laboratory (now known as PHE - Public Health England).
I noticed that & did a rewind to read the sign at the entrance. Also, great & informative posts earlier. Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff