Star Wars: The Last Jedi (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[MBBlat]

Moonhawk said:

"But if The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi were too progressive for some fans"

I'd say that they represent regressive movie making - given that the cast was highly segregated into women and ethnic minorities = good guys, white males = bad guys.

Why is segregation considered "progressive"?

I think I see what you mean - the bad guys, all white men:
https://goo.gl/images/aPgaNb

The good guys - full of women and ethnic minorities, or at least two of each group unless aliens count, which is two more than the bad guys have
https://goo.gl/images/T4QGVx

For those who cant be bothered to click on the links - first pic the imperial council from ANH, 2nd the rebel alliance from RotJ.

[Moonhawk]

Rumblestripe said:

First of all, no girls

Why not - girls can be bad ass. I don't recall any crybaby males complaining en-mass about any of the following (apologies - this is only a partial list).

Ripley - Aliens
Vasquez - Aliens
Lara Croft - Tomb Raider
Jean Grey - Xmen
Storm - Xmen
Starbuck - BSG
Boomer - BSG
Buffy - Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Okoye - Black Panther
Ivanova - B5
Katherine Janeway - Voyager
7 of 9 - Voyager
B'Elanna Torres - Voyager
Dax - DS9
Sarah Connor - Terminator
Terry Carmichael - Broken Arrow
Hope Van Dyne/Wasp - Ant Man
Mistique - Xmen
Rogue - Xmen
Emma Frost - Xmen
Leia - Star Wars
Black Widow - Avengers
Furiosa - Mad Max
Eowyn - LOTR
Arwen - LOTR
Selene - Underworld
The Bride - Kill Bill
Hermione Granger - Harry Potter
Hit Girl - Kick Ass
Katniss Everdeen - Hunger Games
Leeloo - 5th Element
Lisbeth Salander - Girl with Dragon Tattoo
Jinx - Die another day
Miranda Frost - Die another day
Lisa - Weird Science
Jordan - Real Genius
Maria Hill - Avengers
Peggy Carter - Captain America
Trinity - The Matrix
Dana Barrett - Ghostbusters
Huxley - Demolition Man
Alice - Resident Evil
Neytiri - Avatar
Trudy Chacon - Avatar
Grace - Avatar
Dizzy - Starship Troopers
Ibanez - Starship Troopers
Rita Vrataski - Edge of Tomorrow
Cora Raikes - Battleship
Mama Fratelli - Goonies
Terri Doolittle - Jumpin Jack Flash
Luna - Expendables 3
Gwen - Torchwood
Mai - Agents of Shield
Daisey - Agents of Shield
Simmons - Agents of Shield
Lex - AvP
Karla Fry - Beverly Hills Cop 2
Lorna Cole - Lethal Weapon 3 and 4
Gamora - Guardians of the Galaxy
Nebula - Guardians of the Galaxy
Diana - Wonder Woman
Antiope - Wonder Woman
Hippolyta - Wonder Woman
M - James Bond
Eve MoneyPenny - Skyfall
T-X - Terminator 3
Sil - Species
Mira Killian - Ghost in the Shell
Lucy Miller - Lucy
Lindsey Brigman - The Abyss
One Night - The Abyss
Dana Scully - X-Files
Xena - Xena
Jessica Jones - Jessica Jones
Clarice Starling - Silence of the Lambs
Dr Ellie Arroway - Contact
Rose - Dr Who

Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 25th June 20:40

[Moonhawk]

MBBlat said:

For those who cant be bothered to click on the links - first pic the imperial council from ANH, 2nd the rebel alliance from RotJ.

Plenty of white men in that second pic. These images perfectly illustrate that the original movies weren't segregated like the new ones are - cheers for that

[Halb]

On of my faves, Joan Wilder from Romancing the Stone, it's a similar arc as Sarah Connor, but with Danny Devito
And Jack T Colton is actually a bit useless and scuzzy, like Han SOlo.

[MBBlat]

Moonhawk said:

Plenty of white men in that second pic. These images perfectly illustrate that the original movies weren't segregated like the new ones are - cheers for that

You mean there weren't any white males at all in the rebellion I guess Poe an Luke were on the side of the First order then and Captain Phasma was a member of the rebellion? And this little group of cameos https://www.inafarawaygalaxy.com/2017/12/edgar-dri... must have been infiltrators? There were also a smattering of non whites as background characters in the first order. After all you seem to be implying total segregation.

I'm just a little confused since almost every accusation that TLJ is too progressive/SJW/feminist could also be laid at the original trilogy, especially for their time.
BTW Rey is no more a mary-sue than Luke was.

[Halb]

Poe is Cuban/Guatamalan, and LUke isn't in the rebellion plus his character is rubbished in the film

by saying Rey is equal to Luke...not sure if a parrot is incoming, but it's clearly and objectively, not the case, a very poor case of buthwatbout .

If Rey Were Luke - A New Hope: Mary Sue Edition

https://youtu.be/PE2at2Wo9sU

Is Luke a Mary Sue?

https://youtu.be/Xem4yyx6wok

also, the old films had the same sjw agenda? another parrot. Lucas wrote a story that required the three core characters to work together, equality, the sum of their parts they are more, take one out, and the whole plan fails.

Edited by Halb on Monday 25th June 21:57

[Moonhawk]

MBBlat said:

After all you seem to be implying total segregation.

Come on - play fair. Even within the post you quoted, I only stated that the cast was "highly segregated" - not "total"

Also - i'm hardly the first person to highlight this (skip to ~11:00 if you don't want to listen to her entire rant )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHl2O66Y0DQ

MBBlat said:

BTW Rey is no more a mary-sue than Luke was.

Really? Do you know what the definition of a Mary Sue is?

Rey has abilities and powers beyond what she should have given the experiences, training and time she has had to develop them. The events of TFA and TLJ occur over a matter of a few days, yet she has or gains force abilities and skills that it took Luke (or other characters) years to attain to even a fraction of the level Rey has.

Some examples:

Rey can fly the millennium falcon like a pro after getting to grips with the controls for a matter of a few seconds, out maneuvering tie fighters in low level flight and in confined spaces - despite (seemingly) never having flown a ship before and as far as we can tell, never having ridden in one since she was abandoned as a kid. Neither Han Solo nor Lando Calrisian are shown to be able to do this single-handed, despite being intimately familiar with the Falcon and it's handling characteristics - both needing a co-pilot to achieve the feats they did.

Luke on the other hand was established early on as an accomplished pilot through years of practice in his T-16 and was even intending to join the flight academy. Whilst he formed part of the rebel attack on the death star and ultimately landed the killing blow, using the force to guide his actions, his ship was damaged in that attack and it was Han's return and intervention, taking out Vader's tie fighter that arguably facilitated his success. Luke had also received at least some force training from Obi-Wan by that point and received direct guidance (and perhaps direct intervention) from Obi-Wan's ghost too.

Rey acquired force abilities and lightsaber skills over a matter of hours/days. At the start of TFA, she wasn't even aware that the force or the Jedi were anything but fairy stories (until Han confirmed that they were real) - yet in the movie's third act, she was shown to be using the Jedi mind trick, despite not knowing this was even a thing and never having seen it demonstrated. She was also shown to be able to force grab objects, again despite never having seen it done - and could even out grab an experienced force user like Kylo (who was powerful enough to stop blaster bolts). Even though she had never even set eyes on a lightsaber, let alone handles one, she acquired enough skill by the end of TFA to defeat Kylo in single combat, who although injured, had received years of dedicated force and lightsaber training under Luke (and presumably Snoke after him) and who had easily defeated Finn, a trained and competent combat ready ex-storm trooper - if his performance in defeating Phasma in TLJ is anything to go by. She also took on Snoke's highly trained Praetorian guards in TLJ. By the end of TLJ (after what seemed to be just two days on Luke's island - and after receiving very little if any tuition or guidance from him), she was able to levitate multiple rocks in TLJ with an ease not seen since Yoda did it in Attack of the Clones.

Luke on the other hand took years to gain even a fraction of these powers (despite supposedly being the progeny of one of the most powerful force users ever encountered). He is shown to be pretty inept with a lightsaber in ANH and is 'stung' multiple times by the training bot. By ESB (3 years after ANH) he was shown to have gained some force powers - being able to force grab his lightsaber in the Wampa cave, but this was was shown to require immense concentration and effort to achieve. Even after further Jedi training by Yoda, he could barely levitate a single rock. He was still unable to defend himself from Vader's assault using his skills with a light saber or his Jedi power and ultimately suffered defeat, losing his hand in the process and required rescuing for the second time in that movie after failing to forsee the Wampa attack on Hoth. Luke used the Jedi mind trick in ROTJ, but this was at least 4 years after he had seen Obi Wan use that power. Luke did eventually better Vader in single combat in ROTJ, but that was after at least another year of training/practice and even then, he still had to be saved by Vader after being brought to the brink of death by the Emperor. It was Vader who ultimately killed the emperor and brought an end to the Empire - not Luke.

Can you really not see the difference here?

There are examples of male "Mary Sue" (or Gary Stu) characters - but Luke isn't one of them as he has too many flaws, suffers multiple failures and takes a realistic amount of time to acquire his skills/powers.

There have been relatively few Gary Stu type characters in films since the 1980s owing to the popularity of characters like John McClaine, Indiana Jones etc The protagonist is usually shown to be flawed character, a bit of an underdog, out of their depth and get's badly beaten up along the way - but somehow bumbles through and comes out on top in the end.

Wesley Crusher in Star Trek TNG is probably the most obvious example of a Gary Stu. Anakin Skywalker (especially in TPM) is probably another.......and fans have been highly critical of both (Wesley Crusher is routinely voted the worst Star Trek character - so much so, it's even made a joke of in The Big Bang Theory).

Edited by Moonhawk on Tuesday 26th June 10:10

[chris watton]

Moonhawk said:

Why not - girls can be bad ass. I don't recall any crybaby males complaining en-mass about any of the following (apologies - this is only a partial list).

Ripley - Aliens
Vasquez - Aliens
Lara Croft - Tomb Raider
Jean Grey - Xmen
Storm - Xmen
Starbuck - BSG
Boomer - BSG
Buffy - Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Okoye - Black Panther
Ivanova - B5
Katherine Janeway - Voyager
7 of 9 - Voyager
B'Elanna Torres - Voyager
Dax - DS9
Sarah Connor - Terminator
Terry Carmichael - Broken Arrow
Hope Van Dyne/Wasp - Ant Man
Mistique - Xmen
Rogue - Xmen
Emma Frost - Xmen
Leia - Star Wars
Black Widow - Avengers
Furiosa - Mad Max
Eowyn - LOTR
Arwen - LOTR
Selene - Underworld
The Bride - Kill Bill
Hermione Granger - Harry Potter
Hit Girl - Kick Ass
Katniss Everdeen - Hunger Games
Leeloo - 5th Element
Lisbeth Salander - Girl with Dragon Tattoo
Jinx - Die another day
Miranda Frost - Die another day
Lisa - Weird Science
Jordan - Real Genius
Maria Hill - Avengers
Peggy Carter - Captain America
Trinity - The Matrix
Dana Barrett - Ghostbusters
Huxley - Demolition Man
Alice - Resident Evil
Neytiri - Avatar
Trudy Chacon - Avatar
Grace - Avatar
Dizzy - Starship Troopers
Ibanez - Starship Troopers
Rita Vrataski - Edge of Tomorrow
Cora Raikes - Battleship
Mama Fratelli - Goonies
Terri Doolittle - Jumpin Jack Flash
Luna - Expendables 3
Gwen - Torchwood
Mai - Agents of Shield
Daisey - Agents of Shield
Simmons - Agents of Shield
Lex - AvP
Karla Fry - Beverly Hills Cop 2
Lorna Cole - Lethal Weapon 3 and 4
Gamora - Guardians of the Galaxy
Nebula - Guardians of the Galaxy
Diana - Wonder Woman
Antiope - Wonder Woman
Hippolyta - Wonder Woman
M - James Bond
Eve MoneyPenny - Skyfall
T-X - Terminator 3
Sil - Species
Mira Killian - Ghost in the Shell
Lucy Miller - Lucy
Lindsey Brigman - The Abyss
One Night - The Abyss
Dana Scully - X-Files
Xena - Xena
Jessica Jones - Jessica Jones
Clarice Starling - Silence of the Lambs
Dr Ellie Arroway - Contact
Rose - Dr Who

Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 25th June 20:40

Also, two of the most interesting characters in the animated series, Clone Wars are Ahsoka Tano and Assage Ventress (loved her redemption arc), both female.

But why do we have to explain to lunatics, they are blinded by hate -they seem to be a hell of a lot more bigoted than any fan of a franchise.

[IanH755]

Rumblestripe said:

Here's my script pitch

The Last Jedi Remake

First of all, no girls and Luke is back and he has awesome Jedi powers and he swears (a bit). He has a girlfriend (who never wears much) and Darth Maul is Snoke's dad and Rey is probably his daughter and she joins him* and they build a new even bigger Death Star inside (and this is the clever bit) an actual star so way bigger than that Death Planet and the rebels, sorry resistance, have proper X-wings and they have to fly along a valley** in the star but here comes Kylo Ren in his Brat-Fighter, The End***

• You can't trust females even jedi babes.

• Not a trench, no sir.
• Cliffhanger for Episode IX, see?

Thats just about as awful as the pitch for TLJ, DO NOT send it to Lucasfilm for Ep9!!!!!!

While I realise your post is pure sarcasm, it's important to clear up this point - it only deals with the requests of, as I mentioned before, an incredibly small percentage of "bad" SW fans (the 0.1%) and ignores all the complaints from the male-female, white-black, gay-straight, young-old, fans (the 99.9%) who also didn't like this movie because it was just a badly written story, and by fixating on the hateful words of the 0.1% the "real" problems are bypassed/ignored and able to be repeated.

[chris watton]

IanH755 said:

Rumblestripe said:

Here's my script pitch

The Last Jedi Remake

First of all, no girls and Luke is back and he has awesome Jedi powers and he swears (a bit). He has a girlfriend (who never wears much) and Darth Maul is Snoke's dad and Rey is probably his daughter and she joins him* and they build a new even bigger Death Star inside (and this is the clever bit) an actual star so way bigger than that Death Planet and the rebels, sorry resistance, have proper X-wings and they have to fly along a valley** in the star but here comes Kylo Ren in his Brat-Fighter, The End***

• You can't trust females even jedi babes.

• Not a trench, no sir.
• Cliffhanger for Episode IX, see?

Thats just about as awful as the pitch for TLJ, DO NOT send it to Lucasfilm for Ep9!!!!!!

While I realise your post is pure sarcasm, it's important to clear up this point - it only deals with the requests of, as I mentioned before, an incredibly small percentage of "bad" SW fans (the 0.1%) and ignores all the complaints from the male-female, white-black, gay-straight, young-old, fans (the 99.9%) who also didn't like this movie because it was just a badly written story, and by fixating on the hateful words of the 0.1% the "real" problems are bypassed/ignored and able to be repeated.

I hope it was sarcasm, if it was, I apologise for my previous rage aimed towards the poster. However, the political atmosphere is now so bad, it really is difficult to tell if someone is taking the piss or being serious.

I think it is so bad now that it is only a matter of time before someone is killed for their political/ideological beliefs, in a Western democracy, and some will actually cheer. People have allowed themselves to be manipulated to this point, which is pretty scary.

[Halb]

Moonhawk said:

MBBlat said:

BTW Rey is no more a mary-sue than Luke was.

Really? Do you know what the definition of a Mary Sue is?

You have more patience than I. Sometimes I think the craziness of NPE leaks in here and people just come in to stir the st pot with silliness.

[chris watton]

I watched the prequel trilogy on BR over the weekend, and I think I enjoyed them more now than I did when first released (except Ep 1 of course, still hard to sit through).

What struck me most was how damned visually spectacular Ep 2 and 3 look, even today (Ep 3 especially), much more visually appealing than either TFA and TLJ (which I have only watched once, and probably will never watch again). At least the story isn't a word for word re-hash of earlier movies, and they did try something different.

[Motorrad]

I don't know about any of this political crap but The last jedi is a steaming crock of st. It marks the end of me watching these films. I went to see the first in 1977 and loved it. This film killed my interest in the series.

[Guvernator]

Motorrad said:

I don't know about any of this political crap but The last jedi is a steaming crock of st. It marks the end of me watching these films. I went to see the first in 1977 and loved it. This film killed my interest in the series.

This in a nutshell, all the political twaddle while somewhat annoying is really a side issue, the fact of the matter is that even without all that, it was just a poor movie and the least satisfying Star Wars cinema experience for me and that includes the prequels which at least had some good ideas if somewhat poor execution.

[MBBlat]

Just to clarify, I do know what a Mary Sue is, and no I don't think Luke is one, I just don't think Rey is a total Sue either. Anakin in TPM however .... (he did get better as the prequels wore on)
No TLJ is not the best Star Wars film ever, that's will always be reserved for ANH, RotJ, ESB closely followed by Rogue One, its not even as good as TFA. However IMO (and opinions vary) its not nearly as bad as the Phantom Menace, nor does it signal the end of western civilisation as we know it.

Maybe because I saw it via streaming, not in the cinema, but I was expecting it to be a lot worse than it actually was. Holdo really out to have been given some reason to distrust Poe, and Leias spacewalk was cringe-worthy, but on the plus side no whiny kids (looking at you Anakin) and no Jar Jar.

[chris watton]

I think Grace Randolph of Beyond The Trailer sums the current state of SW well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9r8r_-vOVU

[Nom de ploom]

I agree with moonhawk up there,

TLJ is flawed in so many ways the timing of events imho being the biggest and in turns the script at times was woeful.

if it weren't for Daisy Ridley giving Rey massive believablilty due to her performance it would have been even worse

[Moonhawk]

chris watton said:

I think Grace Randolph of Beyond The Trailer sums the current state of SW well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9r8r_-vOVU

One of the points she talks about is merchandise (a point also made in this and other SW related threads).

According to this article - SW merchandise accounted for sales of $251.7bn in 2015 alone, around 250 times what the force awakens took at the global box office that same year.

https://variety.com/2016/film/news/star-wars-licen...

Whilst the movies might do well at the box office of the back of SJW fans - if they alienate the people who are buying the merchandise (who i'm betting aren't in the SJW camp as a rule) - then they risk losing far more.

Even a couple of percent knocked off the merchandise sales would wipe out the entire box office take for TFA, R1, TLJ and erm, for what it's worth.......SOLO and it looks like after TLJ, merchandise sales are starting to cool off.

http://fortune.com/2018/01/18/with-star-wars-toys-...

[chris watton]

Moonhawk said:

One of the points she talks about is merchandise (a point also made in this and other SW related threads).

According to this article - SW merchandise accounted for sales of $251.7bn in 2015 alone, around 250 times what the force awakens took at the global box office that same year.

https://variety.com/2016/film/news/star-wars-licen...

Whilst the movies might do well at the box office of the back of SJW fans - if they alienate the people who are buying the merchandise (who i'm betting aren't in the SJW camp as a rule) - then they risk losing far more.

Even a couple of percent knocked off the merchandise sales would wipe out the entire box office take for TFA, R1, TLJ and erm, for what it's worth.......SOLO and it looks like after TLJ, merchandise sales are starting to cool off.

http://fortune.com/2018/01/18/with-star-wars-toys-...

Yeah, I did buy a few books for TFA and Rogue One, film art stuff, and bought quite a few of the very detailed Bandai models (which I have yet to make) - so probably a couple of hundred Pounds worth of merchandise.

All I spent regarding TLJ is the £2.50 cinema ticket, and that's it, nothing else. It has also ruined and re-watch ability of TFA, as I know now that it goes nowhere. It is most certainly not a 'protest' from me, I just have no interest anymore.

Still re-watch R1 though, but I now prefer to think that TFA and TLJ do not exist.

Edited by chris watton on Wednesday 27th June 10:22

[Halb]

chris watton said:

I think Grace Randolph of Beyond The Trailer sums the current state of SW well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9r8r_-vOVU

great video. JUst checked her out, she's a creative, she's actually made stuff. Probably why she has such a good grasp of stuff.

"don't bother star wars, make your own thing'
and that's it in one sentence.

also, nobody wants KK;s job.

Edited by Halb on Wednesday 27th June 10:22