Star Wars: The Last Jedi (CONTAINS SPOILERS)

[Guvernator]

warch said:

Can someone specifically explain what all this stuff about gender politics in The Last Jedi is all about? I have still not worked out what some people are complaining about.

Not sure how you could miss it tbh, it's very blatant and was being talked up before the film was even released by Kathleen Kennedy and her crew as the best thing about the new films. Still if you don't see it then it's probably best that you continue to ignore it and just enjoy the movie at the superficial level.

Remember though that "The Force is Female"

[jagnet]

Halb said:

I'm not a STar Trek fan, but apparently ST also rips up the story just to make new stuff

So does TLJ in many ways. Holdo's hyperspace ramming manoeuvre is a prime example. It breaks everything that went before. Why go to all the trouble of getting the Death Star plans and relying on a virtually impossible shot into the exhaust outlet when a droid in a small craft going to lightspeed could've done the same job.

There be no point in having Imperial Destroyers since a small number of X-wings piloted by droids could easily take them out.

[jagnet]

JagLover said:

Many movies have strong female characters and they don’t feel the need to achieve this by putting down the male characters around them.

Agree with all of that.

So many films with strong and believable characters. Ripley in the Alien films is one of the greatest sci-fi characters we've had and yet no one takes issue with her being female. She's loved because she's a great character that's well written, well acted, believable and the audience can empathise with her. Rey the Mary Sue in TLJ is everything that Ripley isn't. Which is a shame because her introduction wasn't that bad; not perfect, but a lot better.

[warch]

Halb said:

warch said:

What I don't get is though, if you don't like the new films, why keep going and watching them, or spending hours micro analysing for plot holes or inconsistencies? All Star Wars films are built on plot holes and inconsistencies, it's part of the style.

what are the plot holes and inconsistences in Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back?

The droids land on Tatooine and end up in the possession of the son of the main villain (SW)

Luke landing on an uninhabited planet right on Yoda's doorstep (ESB)

Luke picking up force skills in days (ESB) without a montage either

Spacecraft behaving like they're in an atmosphere (all films)

Reliance on the Force/ghosts etc to advance the plot (all films)

[Halb]

warch said:

The droids land on Tatooine and end up in the possession of the son of the main villain (SW)

Luke landing on an uninhabited planet right on Yoda's doorstep (ESB)

Luke picking up force skills in days (ESB) without a montage either

Spacecraft behaving like they're in an atmosphere (all films)

Reliance on the Force/ghosts etc to advance the plot (all films)

well the ship was going to see Ben Kenobi, who lives near Luke on purpose, that's not a plot hole

Again, Luke was going to Degobah, and we know strong users can influence ships

Luke shows a natural aptitude as a pilot from his early days and we see he's pretty good at the end of SW. We don't actually know how long Han stays in the asteroid belt, it's possible it's days, might be up to two weeks, it's kept open, also not a plot hole considering Yoga tells Luke directly he is not ready and he ends up not being ready

spacecraft...that's just general sci-fi, and isn't really SW/ESB specific

the bit with Ben chatting to LUke in RotJ might possibly be considering clunky exposition, which is stty writing, but that's the third film and again not a plot hole.
Generally films with plot holes don't get put into the AFI 100 and the library of congress

[warch]

Guvernator said:

warch said:

Can someone specifically explain what all this stuff about gender politics in The Last Jedi is all about? I have still not worked out what some people are complaining about.

Not sure how you could miss it tbh, it's very blatant and was being talked up before the film was even released by Kathleen Kennedy and her crew as the best thing about the new films. Still if you don't see it then it's probably best that you continue to ignore it and just enjoy the movie at the superficial level.

Remember though that "The Force is Female"

I didn't 'ignore' anything, because all I did was go out and watch the film, I neither know nor care who runs the Disney Studio. And Disney have been pushing the strong independent woman thing since God knows when, at least the 90s.

[JagLover]

warch said:

I didn't 'ignore' anything, because all I did was go out and watch the film, I neither know nor care who runs the Disney Studio. And Disney have been pushing the strong independent woman thing since God knows when, at least the 90s.

Did you ever wonder why all the "racists" and "misogynists" who don't like TLJ had no criticism of AFA other than that the plot was very unoriginal?

[Coolbanana]

warch said:

I'm never sure what people wanted. I would be interested to see how many people like me did like this film. And the previous film. And Rogue One which is my favourite. I missed Solo but I'm waiting for my local Tesco to restock so I can get it.

Imo Disney simply aren't in the business of making bad films.

I enjoyed it and have yet to meet anyone in person who hasn't.

As you have correctly pointed out, all Star Wars films leak like a sieve story-wise and science-wise. But they are all entertaining, to various degrees.

When Empire was first released it was slated but is now considered one of the best. In 10, 20 years time, TLJ may be seen in a different light by the pedantic fans who feel these types of "switch brain off" and enjoy movies are somehow worthy of deep thoughts and plots.

[Guvernator]

warch said:

I didn't 'ignore' anything, because all I did was go out and watch the film, I neither know nor care who runs the Disney Studio. And Disney have been pushing the strong independent woman thing since God knows when, at least the 90s.

If it was just pushing strong independent women, I doubt very many would have any problem with that, as you say it's being going on in movies for years. That isn't what was happening in this movie.

Besides that was probably the least of the issues I and many others have with this movie and it's not even the main one. In fact it probably wouldn't have got so much of a reaction if the rest of the film wasn't so bad or if Kennedy and co hadn't decided to try to blame the bad fan reaction on us "stupid old white men" being threatened by it, it was they who in fact kicked off that whole little debate.

Personally for me the stupid slow space chase plot, the bad writing, character assassination of Luke, washing down the toilet of nearly every interesting plot point from the first film are far more important to my lack of enjoyment of the movie then the silly gender debate but it's easier for Disney to label me as a male chauvinistic pig instead.

[Halb]

THis isn't really worth a post anywhere, but here I reckon.
Grace has a new vid up, it's about the new SW series on Disney PLus. But in the chat she does mention that the pendulum has swung too far one way and having a male lead can only be good for a brand in this sort of self inflicted turmoil, Grace is pretty darn unbiased and is high enough to get good scoops, she herself liked TLJ but she does understand how many old fans hate it and how it ripped up a lot of what went before.

Cassian Andor TV Series aka Rogue One Prequel - Disney Plus

https://youtu.be/bnWIgum_3Sc
Beyond The Trailer Published on 8 Nov 2018

[Halb]

Coolbanana said:

As you have correctly pointed out, all Star Wars films leak like a sieve story-wise and science-wise. But they are all entertaining, to various degrees.

how do Star Wars and EMpire Strikes Back leak like a sieve?

[robemcdonald]

Halb said:

warch said:

The droids land on Tatooine and end up in the possession of the son of the main villain (SW)

Luke landing on an uninhabited planet right on Yoda's doorstep (ESB)

Luke picking up force skills in days (ESB) without a montage either

Spacecraft behaving like they're in an atmosphere (all films)

Reliance on the Force/ghosts etc to advance the plot (all films)

well the ship was going to see Ben Kenobi, who lives near Luke on purpose, that's not a plot hole

Again, Luke was going to Degobah, and we know strong users can influence ships

Luke shows a natural aptitude as a pilot from his early days and we see he's pretty good at the end of SW. We don't actually know how long Han stays in the asteroid belt, it's possible it's days, might be up to two weeks, it's kept open, also not a plot hole considering Yoga tells Luke directly he is not ready and he ends up not being ready

spacecraft...that's just general sci-fi, and isn't really SW/ESB specific

the bit with Ben chatting to LUke in RotJ might possibly be considering clunky exposition, which is stty writing, but that's the third film and again not a plot hole.
Generally films with plot holes don't get put into the AFI 100 and the library of congress

Just to expand on this a bit. We don’t know how long it takes the millennium falcon to get to Bespin from Hoth. The hyperdrive was broken, so conceivably it could have been months or even years (although unlikely), they could even have stopped on a stupid casino planet (but didn’t feel the need to show it or the stupid camel horses in the movie)

You don’t even know how long they were on cloud city either. Doesn’t Leia at one point ask why fixing the ship is taking so long? How long are they being held prisoner and tortured for before Luke shows up?

[Halb]

robemcdonald said:

Just to expand on this a bit. We don’t know how long it takes the millennium falcon to get to Bespin from Hoth. The hyperdrive was broken, so conceivably it could have been months or even years (although unlikely), they could even have stopped on a stupid casino planet (but didn’t feel the need to show it or the stupid camel horses in the movie)

You don’t even know how long they were on cloud city either. Doesn’t Leia at one point ask why fixing the ship is taking so long? How long are they being held prisoner and tortured for before Luke shows up?

I'm hoping one day, Lucas will finally put in the famous missing casino scene back in Empire in he millennial cut, it's pretty empty without it.

yeah the dialogue is pretty well written in Empire, let's you know time has passed, but how long, who knows. I guess the great dialogue is down to Kershner who loves character led stories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irvin_Kershner#The_E...

[warch]

I hate to break it to anyone trying to enforce logic or reason onto Star Wars, but it plays extremely fast and loose with physics pretty much straight from the off. I actually laughed out loud when someone suggested that hyperdriving one ship into another wasn't 'realistic' in terms of established Star Wars physics, Han Solo explains how dangerous the practice would be in the Tatooine escape bit in the first film. The concept of tracking through hyperspace also originated from the first film.

Regarding shoehorning politics into films, the origins of the politics in the 70s films came in the wake of considerable disillusion with the U.S. establishment, especially after the end of the Vietnam. Lucas says his inspiration for the Empire was the U.S. establishment, which was he felt in danger of changing from a democracy into a dictatorship.

https://www.newsweek.com/does-star-wars-endorse-po...

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

[chris watton]

warch said:

Sounds familiar doesn't it?

If that is the case, and you are defending this POS, why the disparity in BO ratings, if it's really so similar?

[FourWheelDrift]

Quick question.

I liked Rogue One, I don't like Last Jedi. Should I bother with Solo?

[jules_s]

FourWheelDrift said:

Quick question.

I liked Rogue One, I don't like Last Jedi. Should I bother with Solo?

Definitely - it's a great film

[chris watton]

FourWheelDrift said:

Quick question.

I liked Rogue One, I don't like Last Jedi. Should I bother with Solo?

I thought it was OK, started off OK, but slowly lost interest as the film progressed. A definite watch once only affair, whereas TLJ is a do not bother at all film.

I love Rogue One, watched it more times than all the other new SW films put together. I feel it captured the true feel of the original films.

TLJ has now rendered TFA unwatchable, as we all know the plots go nowhere.

[FourWheelDrift]

Ok, I'll give it a go, thanks

[Wobbegong]

FourWheelDrift said:

Quick question.

I liked Rogue One, I don't like Last Jedi. Should I bother with Solo?

It’s pretty good. Not Rogue One good, but certainly better than TFA or TLJ. The nice thing is that my wife, who isn’t a fan of Star Wars, enjoyed it because it’s basically an action film in the SW universe rather than Star Wars (if that makes sense!)