Star Wars: The Last Jedi (CONTAINS SPOILERS)
Discussion
Guvernator said:
Princess Leia in isolation isn't too bad. OK it is because it's totally out of context BUT you could have possibly given it some leeway and accepted Luke might have given her some training before he went into exile or something, if the rest of the film was up to scratch or made sense. Unfortunately it doesn't so the Leia in space scene just becomes one more nail in the coffin.
Oh look another extra powerful female character doing the impossible. I really have no issue with strong female leads, a lot of my favourite cinema characters are female, Rippley, Sarah Connor, Clarice Starling, the Bride etc. However when a film goes out of it's way to make a gender statement as is obviously the case with this, we even have articles online stating this was one of Kennedys goals, to the point that it effects the cohesiveness of the film and the political statement overpowers good story telling, then I have an issue with it.
Indeed, at the very least what Disney should do is retain a single writer/director for each trilogy they release, that way we won't have RJ throwing away all the stuff that JJ had lined up in the first film. It seems to me that RJ not said "screw you" to the fans and legacy of the franchise, he also said a huge "screw you" to JJ.Oh look another extra powerful female character doing the impossible. I really have no issue with strong female leads, a lot of my favourite cinema characters are female, Rippley, Sarah Connor, Clarice Starling, the Bride etc. However when a film goes out of it's way to make a gender statement as is obviously the case with this, we even have articles online stating this was one of Kennedys goals, to the point that it effects the cohesiveness of the film and the political statement overpowers good story telling, then I have an issue with it.
That said, I'm taking Mrs Ash to see it this weekend, so maybe a 2nd viewing will be more enjoyable.
AshVX220 said:
Indeed, at the very least what Disney should do is retain a single writer/director for each trilogy they release, that way we won't have RJ throwing away all the stuff that JJ had lined up in the first film. It seems to me that RJ not said "screw you" to the fans and legacy of the franchise, he also said a huge "screw you" to JJ.
That said, I'm taking Mrs Ash to see it this weekend, so maybe a 2nd viewing will be more enjoyable.
I imagine the jokes and the Porgs are absolutely fantastic on 2nd or indeed 3rd viewing.That said, I'm taking Mrs Ash to see it this weekend, so maybe a 2nd viewing will be more enjoyable.
Guvernator said:
Oh look another extra powerful female character doing the impossible. I really have no issue with strong female leads, a lot of my favourite cinema characters are female, Rippley, Sarah Connor, Clarice Starling, the Bride etc. However when a film goes out of it's way to make a gender statement as is obviously the case with this, we even have articles online stating this was one of Kennedys goals, to the point that it effects the cohesiveness of the film and the political statement overpowers good story telling, then I have an issue with it.
It's funny, when you look at the biggest IPs of the past 40 years, especially in the glory decade, Alien and Terminator were both female action leads, I know SC starts off as a damsel but she grows into warrior/leader by the end, real character progression.In one of the Dave vids I posted he talks about how no worthy IP has been created since the 90s, all the stuff that was great and keeps getting rebooted is from the 70s/80s.
Halb said:
It's funny, when you look at the biggest IPs of the past 40 years, especially in the glory decade, Alien and Terminator were both female action leads, I know SC starts off as a damsel but she grows into warrior/leader by the end, real character progression.
In one of the Dave vids I posted he talks about how no worthy IP has been created since the 90s, all the stuff that was great and keeps getting rebooted is from the 70s/80s.
Much like with cars, I genuinely believe we reached a peak in the late 80's to early 90's, it's all been downhill since then. In one of the Dave vids I posted he talks about how no worthy IP has been created since the 90s, all the stuff that was great and keeps getting rebooted is from the 70s/80s.
AshVX220 said:
With the hype and the toys etc, I was actually dreading the Porgs bit, but to me they were among the lease offensive aspects of the film! 
Yep agreed, they were the most Star Wars like bits of humour in TLJ IMO as Star Wars has always had cute animal does something funny bits in them. Much less jarring or forced then "Your mum" jokes at any rate.Hopes were high before going to watch it . . . . was left a little dissappointed.
More so as it was geared to be better or as good as ESB; there is no comparision and TLJ is no where near as good.
I liked the Yoda scene; that was a nice surprise. I thought Mark/Luke was excellent; he made the film pretty good.
Why kill Snorke? Didn't get that; I liked the fact he was very powerful/mysterious and was playing with both of them, only to be killed in a crappy way (never seen a LS light up on it's own)
For me, a Star Wars movie should have bad arse light sabre fights; we have not had this in both of the new movies. I can forgive TFA but was expecting Rey to kick butt with her training in this one; major let down.
Although EP1, 2 & 3 were lacking in many ways, the Light Sabre fights and choreography were brilliant; I'd happily watch the movies again for the fight scenes. You would think Kylo would be pretty adapt to a light sabre but comes across as a newbie!
A bit confused as where EP9 will go; they have killed off a few ends that were raised after TFA in a odd way!
More so as it was geared to be better or as good as ESB; there is no comparision and TLJ is no where near as good.
I liked the Yoda scene; that was a nice surprise. I thought Mark/Luke was excellent; he made the film pretty good.
Why kill Snorke? Didn't get that; I liked the fact he was very powerful/mysterious and was playing with both of them, only to be killed in a crappy way (never seen a LS light up on it's own)
For me, a Star Wars movie should have bad arse light sabre fights; we have not had this in both of the new movies. I can forgive TFA but was expecting Rey to kick butt with her training in this one; major let down.
Although EP1, 2 & 3 were lacking in many ways, the Light Sabre fights and choreography were brilliant; I'd happily watch the movies again for the fight scenes. You would think Kylo would be pretty adapt to a light sabre but comes across as a newbie!
A bit confused as where EP9 will go; they have killed off a few ends that were raised after TFA in a odd way!
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: I've watched it twice and I don't get the issue people have with "strong women" in the film.
To me it seems like one of those things where if you're looking for it it's there and if you're not you barely give it a thought.
Are you deliberately trolling or being intentionally contrary now? The producer Kathleen Kennedy has gone on record stating it was a theme she was pushing in the movie.To me it seems like one of those things where if you're looking for it it's there and if you're not you barely give it a thought.
So, if it is not as apparent as you state then she must have failed in that intention.
r11co said:
Are you deliberately trolling or being intentionally contrary now? The producer Kathleen Kennedy has gone on record stating it was a theme she was pushing in the movie.
So, if it is not as apparent as you state then she must have failed in that intention.
No, try just taking what I said at face value.So, if it is not as apparent as you state then she must have failed in that intention.
I didn't watch the film and at any point think "There's clearly a theme being pushed here around female characters".
SR7492 said:
Hopes were high before going to watch it . . . . was left a little dissappointed.
More so as it was geared to be better or as good as ESB; there is no comparision and TLJ is no where near as good.
I liked the Yoda scene; that was a nice surprise. I thought Mark/Luke was excellent; he made the film pretty good.
Why kill Snorke? Didn't get that; I liked the fact he was very powerful/mysterious and was playing with both of them, only to be killed in a crappy way (never seen a LS light up on it's own)
For me, a Star Wars movie should have bad arse light sabre fights; we have not had this in both of the new movies. I can forgive TFA but was expecting Rey to kick butt with her training in this one; major let down.
Although EP1, 2 & 3 were lacking in many ways, the Light Sabre fights and choreography were brilliant; I'd happily watch the movies again for the fight scenes. You would think Kylo would be pretty adapt to a light sabre but comes across as a newbie!
A bit confused as where EP9 will go; they have killed off a few ends that were raised after TFA in a odd way!
EP1 to 3 were jedi at the height of their power.More so as it was geared to be better or as good as ESB; there is no comparision and TLJ is no where near as good.
I liked the Yoda scene; that was a nice surprise. I thought Mark/Luke was excellent; he made the film pretty good.
Why kill Snorke? Didn't get that; I liked the fact he was very powerful/mysterious and was playing with both of them, only to be killed in a crappy way (never seen a LS light up on it's own)
For me, a Star Wars movie should have bad arse light sabre fights; we have not had this in both of the new movies. I can forgive TFA but was expecting Rey to kick butt with her training in this one; major let down.
Although EP1, 2 & 3 were lacking in many ways, the Light Sabre fights and choreography were brilliant; I'd happily watch the movies again for the fight scenes. You would think Kylo would be pretty adapt to a light sabre but comes across as a newbie!
A bit confused as where EP9 will go; they have killed off a few ends that were raised after TFA in a odd way!
4 onwards they consist of a crippled cyborg, a senile old man and people with minimal training. Even Kylo was only trained by Luke, who spent a week or so being trained in general force stuff by Yoda.
They had to kill Snoke, otherwise the next film will have exactly the same plot as ROTJ. I reckon the dark side will win in 9. Otherwise they have nowhere to go in 10.
frisbee said:
I reckon the dark side will win in 9. Otherwise they have nowhere to go in 10.
I still think it would have been bolder to have Rey turn out to be the main baddie. Her willingness to go to the darkside in TLJ could worked very well with this - whilst Kylo is (or was) clearly conflicted.
Despite his past transgressions he could have come back to the light and redeemed himself (kinda how Luke did in the Dark Empire book series).
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I didn't watch the film and at any point think "There's clearly a theme being pushed here around female characters".
Try taking what I said at face value. The above being the case then something has gone wrong - either:(a) you missed it,
(b) you are deliberately pretending you didn't notice it to be contrary,
(c) Lucasfilm president and life-long feminist Kathleen Kennedy was s
tting us 
.There's enough evidence to suggest it isn't (c). It was there. The people who made the film said it was there and literally hundreds of thousands of commentators have been discussing it.
You didn't notice it? That says more about you than the issue itself and lets us know what value to give your opinion.
PS. Big spoiler for the thing you failed to notice.....
Edited by r11co on Wednesday 10th January 19:37
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I haven't knowingly read or watched anything from Kathleen Kennedy so maybe I went in without any pre-conceptions about her, Disney, who knows 
Irrelevant - you didn't need to be expecting it to notice it. I was just informing you of the producer's intentions to let you know what a klutz you were being.The old saying that everyone is entitled to their opinion is true, but it is equally true that not everyone's opinion has value and one should accept theirs may be wrong in the face of evidence to the contrary.
You've said a lot about what you thought of the film but you've admitted to missing one of its main stated themes. That puts everything else you've said into persepective.
Edited by r11co on Wednesday 10th January 19:43
r11co said:
Irrelevant - you didn't need to be expecting it to notice it. I was just informing you of the producer's intentions to let you know what a klutz you were being.
If you knew all of those intentions in advance or retrospectively then of course you can sit there ticking whatever boxes you think support those intentions.I didn't know them so I watched a film where a powerful character happened to be a woman without thinking "Hmm there's clearly an agenda here".
I'm not sure that should be so hard to believe but if that makes me a "klutz" c'est la vie.
Moonhawk said:
I still think it would have been bolder to have Rey turn out to be the main baddie.
Her willingness to go to the darkside in TLJ could worked very well with this - whilst Kylo is (or was) clearly conflicted.
Despite his past transgressions he could have come back to the light and redeemed himself (kinda how Luke did in the Dark Empire book series).
THat would have been ace, and something that was hinted at, Ben Sharpiro had it. But then they didn't do it, it's basically what the Vader turn should have been way back. And would have made up for giving LUke a lobotomy...sort of.Her willingness to go to the darkside in TLJ could worked very well with this - whilst Kylo is (or was) clearly conflicted.
Despite his past transgressions he could have come back to the light and redeemed himself (kinda how Luke did in the Dark Empire book series).
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: If you knew all of those intentions in advance or retrospectively then of course you can sit there ticking whatever boxes you think support those intentions.
I didn't know them so I watched a film where a powerful character happened to be a woman without thinking "Hmm there's clearly an agenda here".
I'm not sure that should be so hard to believe but if that makes me a "klutz" c'est la vie.
The only expectation I went in with was seeing a decent Star Wars movie as I managed to avoid nearly all spoilers, TFA was decent enough and R1 wasn't bad either so I had reason to believe this would be of at least similar quality if not better. I certainly didn't go in pre-programmed to tick boxes nor do I go into any film actively seeking out agendas. I didn't know them so I watched a film where a powerful character happened to be a woman without thinking "Hmm there's clearly an agenda here".
I'm not sure that should be so hard to believe but if that makes me a "klutz" c'est la vie.
However when it's so blatantly shoved down your throat and I'm not just talking about the feminist angle here but the rich people selling weapons\war is bad anti Trump agenda too than it sticks out like a sore thumb. It's like a Star Wars film made by Mumsnet.
Then you go online and see hundreds of thousands of people noticed the exact same thing. Of course we are then all accused of being misogynists who are afraid of strong women and that's why we didn't like the film. Same thing happened with Ghostbusters, it's happening in the media for this film and now it's happening on this thread too.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: If you knew all of those intentions in advance or retrospectively then of course you can sit there ticking whatever boxes you think support those intentions.
I didn't. I went in spoiler and press report free. I'd read nothing about the movie at all. It was only my sense of total dis-satisfaction with what I saw that led me to check out the retrospective background info to see if I was on to something before I aired any criticisms.You should try it - lends perspective!
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