Star Wars: The Last Jedi (CONTAINS SPOILERS)
Discussion
Guvernator said:
I'll give Wonder Woman as a good decent example, no over the top virtue signalling, no obvious agenda with a strong supporting male cast. It just has a decent story, a pretty well made film with a very charismatic and likeable female lead and yet she has effectively become a strong roll model and poster girl for a whole generation of females. Subtle and effective without feeling the need to bang people over the head with the feminism hammer to get it's message across.
The one thing that annoyed me with WW (other than how crap looking full power Ares was) was that the very first thing everybody in the film commented on WW when she did anything was how pretty she was, not how she'd jump a tall building, smashed a tank, or some other similarly impressive feat of strength. I can't actually remember any of the humans even mentioning her physical gifts.confucuis said:
Whilst I wasn't thinking about gender politics and virtue signalling at the time, even when I was watching the film something seemed "off" to me, like the film was saying something besides the actual story and ended up ruining the immersion I had felt up to that point.
Sums up my own feelings at the time exactly. Only when I scratched the itch did I come to the conclusions I've expressed here. Understandably it is easy for people who don't put the brain-power into things to miss the messages, but not seeing it doesn't mean it isn't there.Plus, as everyone has alluded to, it was just one item on the list of things wrong with the movie.
Edited by r11co on Thursday 11th January 14:46
Guvernator said:
IforB said:
I detected no agenda and nor did I see any character being emasculated or denigrated for being male in the slightest. I am genuinely confused as to what bit of the film that appeared in.
Almost every single scene with Poe and Purple Hair for a start.I know different people have different viewpoints etc so you might not have noticed it but it's definitely there, enough for lots of other people to notice it at any rate, I certainly did.
As you say, we all see it differently, but I still didn't at anytime think it was an over the top Jenni Murrayesque man hating bashathon.
tankplanker said:
he one thing that annoyed me with WW (other than how crap looking full power Ares was) was that the very first thing everybody in the film commented on WW when she did anything was how pretty she was, not how she'd jump a tall building, smashed a tank, or some other similarly impressive feat of strength. I can't actually remember any of the humans even mentioning her physical gifts.
It was more subtle than that though. People were visibly in awe of her abilities even if they didnt vocalise it.They dont have to shout “awww myyyy gawwwd - did you see that woman jump over that building” every time she does something.
This constant dialog and commentating the action or plot is one of the annoying things that is creeping into a lot of modern films.
I bet the average word count of movies today is a lot higher than it used to be. Sometimes a movie can have more impact when something isnt said.
Moonhawk said:
It was more subtle than that though. People were visibly in awe of her abilities even if they didnt vocalise it.
They dont have to shout “awww myyyy gawwwd - did you see that woman jump over that building” every time she does something.
This constant dialog and commentating the action or plot is one of the annoying things that is creeping into a lot of modern films.
I bet the average word count of movies today is a lot higher than it used to be. Sometimes a movie can have more impact when something isnt said.
Equally the first words out of their mouths didn't need to be "oh my gosh, you are so pretty" or words to that effect after she does something appropriately bad ass, so they come across as being in awe of her beauty. Oh, and the whole outfit choosing scene as well. They dont have to shout “awww myyyy gawwwd - did you see that woman jump over that building” every time she does something.
This constant dialog and commentating the action or plot is one of the annoying things that is creeping into a lot of modern films.
I bet the average word count of movies today is a lot higher than it used to be. Sometimes a movie can have more impact when something isnt said.
tankplanker said:
qually the first words out of their mouths didn't need to be "oh my gosh, you are so pretty" or words to that effect after she does something appropriately bad ass, so they come across as being in awe of her beauty. Oh, and the whole outfit choosing scene as well.
You have to view the movie in the context of the time period it was set though.These things were likely set up specifically to highlight how different attitudes were 100 years ago with regards to modest dress, women in senior positions/combat etc.
IforB said:
OK, but the Poe Dameron character is a massive pain in the proverbial, so him getting slapped down by anyone seems perfectly alright by me! I didn't see that as men being beaten down, just one man being a muppet and getting a slap from his superiors, who just happened to be women.
As you say, we all see it differently, but I still didn't at anytime think it was an over the top Jenni Murrayesque man hating bashathon.
Yes but why was he a pain? He certainly wasn't in the first movie, in fact I thought he was a pretty likeable character in TFA then for some reason in TLJ they decide to turn him into some whiny hot head who has to be taught that being a macho hero type is wrong by the wise women. As you say, we all see it differently, but I still didn't at anytime think it was an over the top Jenni Murrayesque man hating bashathon.
The whole character ark for Poe is completely weird and then it's almost echoed again with the Finn and Rose story. So in a film saga about heroes,villains and making sacrifices, we are now taught that being a hero is nothing but testosterone fuelled macho BS and we should all just hold hands and love will save the day. Really it sounds like something made up by a lentil eating man hater.
Moonhawk said:
You have to view the movie in the context of the time period it was set though.
These things were likely set up specifically to highlight how different attitudes were 100 years ago with regards to modest dress, women in senior positions/combat etc.
I'm not buying that as all of the other from period sexist comments are directly addressed in the film. It turns her looks into her defining feature. These things were likely set up specifically to highlight how different attitudes were 100 years ago with regards to modest dress, women in senior positions/combat etc.
Good films are good films, irrespective of what gender the protagonists are.
What the film industry cannot do however, is force people to like films because, and only because, of the diverse nature of the cast.
This is a huge cop out, as they can blame racists/misogynists/whatever-phobe for a poor audience reaction and falling BO sales. That's not really how it works if you want more bums on seats to pay for your crap.
Talking down to your customer base to make them feel guilty isn't the best business practise....
What the film industry cannot do however, is force people to like films because, and only because, of the diverse nature of the cast.
This is a huge cop out, as they can blame racists/misogynists/whatever-phobe for a poor audience reaction and falling BO sales. That's not really how it works if you want more bums on seats to pay for your crap.
Talking down to your customer base to make them feel guilty isn't the best business practise....
Edited by chris watton on Thursday 11th January 16:25
)To get to the middle ground (where people see it as being normal) you often have to start so far extreme to get peoples attention.
And as someone else said the casting of ethnic or female characters is not what makes the last jedi s
te.
Ill watch it again when my nephew gets it bluray. Rogue one was better at home than the cinema but TLJ has far major flaws
And as someone else said the casting of ethnic or female characters is not what makes the last jedi s
te. Ill watch it again when my nephew gets it bluray. Rogue one was better at home than the cinema but TLJ has far major flaws
Id also thought id add that i think wonder woman is terrible. Strong female lead, a role model..... pfft. A sexualised character hidden behind the charm of Gal Gadot and the dreams of a decent DC movie.
Terrible predictable plot taken from hollywoods archives of naive hero gets sidekick, starts to realise the real world, boss fight.
But then again i really liked man of steel so what do i know
Terrible predictable plot taken from hollywoods archives of naive hero gets sidekick, starts to realise the real world, boss fight.
But then again i really liked man of steel so what do i know
Daniel1 said:
To get to the middle ground (where people see it as being normal) you often have to start so far extreme to get peoples attention.
I disagree - Alien and Aliens didn't start "extreme". They just did it without trumpeting the fact - and it worked. The fact that the cast was racially diverse(ish) and had strong female characters/leads didn't even register as something out of the ordinary. This was back in the 1970s and 1980s where arguably gender and racial equality wasn't anything like what it is today - yet people just accepted it and these films have stood the test of time.
IMO film makers have taken a retrograde step in as much as they seem to want to make an issue or statement out of it.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 11th January 18:19
Moonhawk said:
I disagree - Alien and Aliens didn't start "extreme". They just did it without trumpeting the fact - and it worked.
The fact that the cast was racially diverse and had strong female characters/leads didn't even register as something out of the ordinary. This was back in the 1970s and 1980s where arguably gender and racial equality wasn't anything like what it is today - yet people just accepted it and these films have stood the test of time.
IMO film makers have taken a retrograde step in as much as they seem to want to make an issue or statement out of it.
I agree with you i meant today and in general. Want to highlight an issue? Get lily allen on tje case The fact that the cast was racially diverse and had strong female characters/leads didn't even register as something out of the ordinary. This was back in the 1970s and 1980s where arguably gender and racial equality wasn't anything like what it is today - yet people just accepted it and these films have stood the test of time.
IMO film makers have taken a retrograde step in as much as they seem to want to make an issue or statement out of it.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 11th January 18:12
Finally managed to see it - not entirely sure why so many people have been so exercised over it.
Good space opera hokum. Just like the original. Which I remember seeing in the 70's....
Island scenes could have been tighter, but it rolled along and I walked out smiling. Look forward to seeing it on the projector at home in 12 months time.
Good space opera hokum. Just like the original. Which I remember seeing in the 70's....
Island scenes could have been tighter, but it rolled along and I walked out smiling. Look forward to seeing it on the projector at home in 12 months time.
Guvernator said:
IforB said:
OK, but the Poe Dameron character is a massive pain in the proverbial, so him getting slapped down by anyone seems perfectly alright by me! I didn't see that as men being beaten down, just one man being a muppet and getting a slap from his superiors, who just happened to be women.
As you say, we all see it differently, but I still didn't at anytime think it was an over the top Jenni Murrayesque man hating bashathon.
Yes but why was he a pain? He certainly wasn't in the first movie, in fact I thought he was a pretty likeable character in TFA then for some reason in TLJ they decide to turn him into some whiny hot head who has to be taught that being a macho hero type is wrong by the wise women. As you say, we all see it differently, but I still didn't at anytime think it was an over the top Jenni Murrayesque man hating bashathon.
The whole character ark for Poe is completely weird and then it's almost echoed again with the Finn and Rose story. So in a film saga about heroes,villains and making sacrifices, we are now taught that being a hero is nothing but testosterone fuelled macho BS and we should all just hold hands and love will save the day. Really it sounds like something made up by a lentil eating man hater.
“Heyyyy Buddy...”
Oh do *#€$ off.
Leithen said:
Finally managed to see it - not entirely sure why so many people have been so exercised over it.
Good space opera hokum. Just like the original. Which I remember seeing in the 70's....
Island scenes could have been tighter, but it rolled along and I walked out smiling. Look forward to seeing it on the projector at home in 12 months time.
It needs to be seen on at least 20 grand's worth of projector apparently.Good space opera hokum. Just like the original. Which I remember seeing in the 70's....
Island scenes could have been tighter, but it rolled along and I walked out smiling. Look forward to seeing it on the projector at home in 12 months time.
Ayahuasca said:
Leithen said:
Finally managed to see it - not entirely sure why so many people have been so exercised over it.
Good space opera hokum. Just like the original. Which I remember seeing in the 70's....
Island scenes could have been tighter, but it rolled along and I walked out smiling. Look forward to seeing it on the projector at home in 12 months time.
It needs to be seen on at least 20 grand's worth of projector apparently.Good space opera hokum. Just like the original. Which I remember seeing in the 70's....
Island scenes could have been tighter, but it rolled along and I walked out smiling. Look forward to seeing it on the projector at home in 12 months time.
Moonhawk said:
I disagree - Alien and Aliens didn't start "extreme". They just did it without trumpeting the fact - and it worked.
The fact that the cast was racially diverse(ish) and had strong female characters/leads didn't even register as something out of the ordinary. This was back in the 1970s and 1980s where arguably gender and racial equality wasn't anything like what it is today - yet people just accepted it and these films have stood the test of time.
IMO film makers have taken a retrograde step in as much as they seem to want to make an issue or statement out of it.
That I agree with. When the script for Alien was written they didn't assign genders to the roles and just cast the best fit actor for each of them. The fact that the cast was racially diverse(ish) and had strong female characters/leads didn't even register as something out of the ordinary. This was back in the 1970s and 1980s where arguably gender and racial equality wasn't anything like what it is today - yet people just accepted it and these films have stood the test of time.
IMO film makers have taken a retrograde step in as much as they seem to want to make an issue or statement out of it.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 11th January 18:19
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