Marvel's Black Panther
Discussion
Moonhawk said:
There have been movies with black leads, movies with primarily black casts and black superheroes going back years. Black Panther was hardly breaking new ground in any of these regards.
It was a decent movie - but to claim it represented some sort of social paradigm shift just because Hollywood blew their collective load is rather overstretching it somewhat.
That’s kind of my point. Groundbreaking isn’t a prerequisite of a social phenomenon. It was a decent movie - but to claim it represented some sort of social paradigm shift just because Hollywood blew their collective load is rather overstretching it somewhat.
I didn’t claim it did. You can’t deny that it had an impact much wider than Hollywood. I don’t recall Serena Williams talking about her Blade inspired outfit (for example).
I get that it is your personal ambition to dislike everything because of the SJW thing at the moment and that’s fine (if a little predictable), but to defy Black Panthers achievements doesn’t help your argument IMO.
gregs656 said:
That’s kind of my point. Groundbreaking isn’t a prerequisite of a social phenomenon.
I didn’t claim it did. You can’t deny that it had an impact much wider than Hollywood. I don’t recall Serena Williams talking about her Blade inspired outfit (for example).
I get that it is your personal ambition to dislike everything because of the SJW thing at the moment and that’s fine (if a little predictable), but to defy Black Panthers achievements doesn’t help your argument IMO.
Black Panther has had a big social impact i'm sure. This however is a movies sub forum and we are here (I imagine) as we want to watch good movies.I didn’t claim it did. You can’t deny that it had an impact much wider than Hollywood. I don’t recall Serena Williams talking about her Blade inspired outfit (for example).
I get that it is your personal ambition to dislike everything because of the SJW thing at the moment and that’s fine (if a little predictable), but to defy Black Panthers achievements doesn’t help your argument IMO.
It is therefore good consumer advice to be aware that average or even poor movies will receive glowing reviews if they have the right political message. Similarly there are some good movies who have been given poor reviews for the reverse.
This is not to say that Black panther was poor, just that it is one of the best reviewed movies ever on Rotton Tomatoes and the movie isn't anywhere near the level of those reviews.
I'm sure it will inspire many more similar movies and if they find an audience then everyone involved will be happy.
gregs656 said:
That’s kind of my point. Groundbreaking isn’t a prerequisite of a social phenomenon.
I didn’t claim it did. You can’t deny that it had an impact much wider than Hollywood. I don’t recall Serena Williams talking about her Blade inspired outfit (for example).
And that's fair enough - but I think the phenomena was caused more around the way it was pitched and marketed - rather than something fundamental with the movie itself. That's all i'm saying.I didn’t claim it did. You can’t deny that it had an impact much wider than Hollywood. I don’t recall Serena Williams talking about her Blade inspired outfit (for example).
gregs656 said:
I get that it is your personal ambition to dislike everything because of the SJW thing at the moment and that’s fine (if a little predictable), but to defy Black Panthers achievements doesn’t help your argument IMO.
I think you are being a little unfair. Where have I said I disliked Black Panther. I said exactly the opposite in fact, just a few posts above. I haven't professed dislike for Oceans 8 (because I haven't seen it) and have in fact stated it might be worth a watch (I quite like Sandra Bullock movies). I have commented on the 'white male' blame game that seems to be surrounding it at the moment - but that's a side issue. I didn't profess dislike for Solo either (again I haven't seen it). There are a few plot points I have read about that I think sound pretty ridiculous (SJW droid for example) - but again i'm willing to give the movie a fair crack when it comes out on blu-ray.Back to the subject of Black Panther, you can't possibly deny that at least part of Black Panther's phenomenon is simply down to timing though. 'Diversity' and 'equality' are the current buzzwords. Had it been brought out 10 or 20 years ago - I doubt it would have caused quite as much of a stir, just as movies with 'all female' main casts didn't back in the day.
Yes - i'm against this SJW stuff - simply because I feel it's not really about diversity or equality.
I don't think Black Panther was an SJW movie however. The characters and the context felt natural and unforced. There were a few lines that made me cringe a little - "another broken white boy" etc, however I thought those lines served to highlight the fact that despite Wacanda's advanced technology, they still harboured an insular, isolationist and in some ways, backwards standpoint with regards to how it viewed the rest of the world. I also felt that the movie's narrative with regards to Killmonger was interesting. Had Killmonger won - he would have ironically become the very coloniser, dictator and in all likelihood, slaver he seemed to so despise. To me it simply highlighted the fact that ultimately it doesn't matter who is in charge or what race they are - world history would likely have played out much the same whoever weilded the power. Colonisation, slavery etc would have still happened regardless of which countries came to dominance (and in fact it did to a degree - just look up the Barbary slave trade).
Most of all though, Black Panther didn't feel like a tick box exercise, probably because it wasn't - unlike TLJ.
Edited by Moonhawk on Friday 22 June 20:37
Moonhawk said:
I also felt that the movie's narrative with regards to Killmonger was interesting. Had Killmonger won - he would have ironically become the very coloniser, dictator and in all likelihood, slaver he seemed to so despise. To me it simply highlighted the fact that ultimately it doesn't matter who is in charge or what race they are - world history would likely have played out much the same whoever weilded the power. Colonisation, slavery etc would have still happened regardless of which countries came to dominance (and in fact it did to a degree - just look up the Barbary slave trade).
Most of all though, Black Panther didn't feel like a tick box exercise, probably because it wasn't - unlike TLJ.
I think that this is a point that is (quite subversively) being made. In all honesty though it's not 'races' who cause problems - it's individual people, because people are aMost of all though, Black Panther didn't feel like a tick box exercise, probably because it wasn't - unlike TLJ.
holes Just watched with family. Not one enjoyed it.
Felt like every African stereotype from a 30’s Tarzan was included, given an apple watch and had the saturation turned up.
And despite all the tech they still have such extreem traditions? Cause thats normal. Oh, and pick whose in charge based on beating each other to the death. Be a while before a female is running that show then.
Felt it said more negatives about African countries than positives. Cant belive it gets such good reviews.
Felt like every African stereotype from a 30’s Tarzan was included, given an apple watch and had the saturation turned up.
And despite all the tech they still have such extreem traditions? Cause thats normal. Oh, and pick whose in charge based on beating each other to the death. Be a while before a female is running that show then.
Felt it said more negatives about African countries than positives. Cant belive it gets such good reviews.
Tiggsy said:
...
Oh, and pick whose in charge based on beating each other to the death. Be a while before a female is running that show then.
...
It’s possible for a nation with advanced technology to hold on to archaic cultural and political customs. Oh, and pick whose in charge based on beating each other to the death. Be a while before a female is running that show then.
...
A decade ago, the heir to the throne was still determined by primogeniture.
I actually really enjoyed it until about the poi t where the "bad guy" actually won. Until then he'd been a pretty decent character consumed by righteous anger for the suffering underclass. But his big masterplan of "let's give guns to every bunch of criminals amd lowlifes we can find" was utterly ridiculous and he basically became less believable as the film continued.
Until then I enjoyed the contrast of privilege between the antagonist and BP and the argument over who was really worthy. But in the end it was all smash-smash, good guys win.
Until then I enjoyed the contrast of privilege between the antagonist and BP and the argument over who was really worthy. But in the end it was all smash-smash, good guys win.
MissChief said:
But it was, it's purely on that list for inclusion. If it wins Best picture then all hope is lost for fairness and filmmaking.
It's almost counter productive. Whilst a good movie of its type, its so blatantly not good enough to be included (as said, it's not even the best marvel movie of the year) almost everyone will just view it as tokenism, a patronizing pat on the head to both the genre & cast. You can almost see it - pressure to have a popular franchise of movies referenced, pressure on inclusivity (& the clear lack of fair representation in previous years) makes Black Panther the perfect opportunity for them to kill two birds with one stone.To be fair though I'm pretty sure it was a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't, over this one. Will be a proper shake of the head moment if it wins though.
It's in for best picture?
THat's pretty phenomenal. Oscars ignore blockbusters, tey have one from day one. The disconnect between academy and pleb has gotten so wide in recent years, they started to moot extra oscars, like best popcorn feature etc (called something else but you get the point). THe inclusion of a popcorn muncher like BP would seem a YUGE change of tack has occurred behind closed doors.
THat's pretty phenomenal. Oscars ignore blockbusters, tey have one from day one. The disconnect between academy and pleb has gotten so wide in recent years, they started to moot extra oscars, like best popcorn feature etc (called something else but you get the point). THe inclusion of a popcorn muncher like BP would seem a YUGE change of tack has occurred behind closed doors.
bstb3 said:
It's almost counter productive. Whilst a good movie of its type, its so blatantly not good enough to be included (as said, it's not even the best marvel movie of the year) almost everyone will just view it as tokenism, a patronizing pat on the head to both the genre & cast. You can almost see it - pressure to have a popular franchise of movies referenced, pressure on inclusivity (& the clear lack of fair representation in previous years) makes Black Panther the perfect opportunity for them to kill two birds with one stone.
To be fair though I'm pretty sure it was a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't, over this one. Will be a proper shake of the head moment if it wins though.
I agree with all of this.To be fair though I'm pretty sure it was a case of damned if they do, damned if they don't, over this one. Will be a proper shake of the head moment if it wins though.
It could easily backfire.
MissChief said:
But it was, it's purely on that list for inclusion. If it wins Best picture then all hope is lost for fairness and filmmaking.
If it wins best picture then there is literally no point in the entire Oscars because to say Oscar nominated already means it's ticked a box, to say Oscar winner still needs be something of value.Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff