The Vietnam war BBC4
Discussion
All those articles on the series all seem to have their own agenda!
Something like a war is so complex, so shades or grey that obviously some things will be missed out, miss reported etc.
That article suggested the anti-war movement was not seriously represented in the documentary? what? Eps 7 & 8 were pretty much entirely about the war was ended (or about to be ended) not in Vietnam, where the US "won" every single battle it fought, but in the US, where social pressure brought political will to end the war and bring their solders home. They also covered the significant events, like students being shot dead on their home campus in the US, showing bleeding and dead bodies lying in the University car park. i'd not call that glossing over the subject myself.....
The simple fact is, if those commentators think the series was so bad and so misrepresentation, why don't they make their own 18hr long series on the war?
Something like a war is so complex, so shades or grey that obviously some things will be missed out, miss reported etc.
That article suggested the anti-war movement was not seriously represented in the documentary? what? Eps 7 & 8 were pretty much entirely about the war was ended (or about to be ended) not in Vietnam, where the US "won" every single battle it fought, but in the US, where social pressure brought political will to end the war and bring their solders home. They also covered the significant events, like students being shot dead on their home campus in the US, showing bleeding and dead bodies lying in the University car park. i'd not call that glossing over the subject myself.....
The simple fact is, if those commentators think the series was so bad and so misrepresentation, why don't they make their own 18hr long series on the war?
Scabutz said:
Just watched Ep8. The most shocking episode so far. The slaughter of the villagers by the US was shocking but the National Guard killing the students was outrageous. I can't believe I never knew that happened.
Brilliant documentary.
I remember the shock of the shooting of the Kent State students. I was 12 at the time. There was a harrowing interview with the father of one of the girls killed. His point was what was America about if it couldn't allow young people to voice their opposition to the government. He could not understand why his daughter had to die because she was just voicing her objections to government policy.Brilliant documentary.
He appeared briefly in one of the scenes in the documentary but they didn't include the interview he gave American TV. I'm sure he's no longer with us as he'd be around 100 years old by now. If he was alive today I wonder how depressed he would be by the way things are in America right now.
Max_Torque said:
All those articles on the series all seem to have their own agenda!
Something like a war is so complex, so shades or grey that obviously some things will be missed out, miss reported etc.
That article suggested the anti-war movement was not seriously represented in the documentary? what? Eps 7 & 8 were pretty much entirely about the war was ended (or about to be ended) not in Vietnam, where the US "won" every single battle it fought, but in the US, where social pressure brought political will to end the war and bring their solders home. They also covered the significant events, like students being shot dead on their home campus in the US, showing bleeding and dead bodies lying in the University car park. i'd not call that glossing over the subject myself.....
The simple fact is, if those commentators think the series was so bad and so misrepresentation, why don't they make their own 18hr long series on the war?
Maybe you need to look at the date in which the article was written...Something like a war is so complex, so shades or grey that obviously some things will be missed out, miss reported etc.
That article suggested the anti-war movement was not seriously represented in the documentary? what? Eps 7 & 8 were pretty much entirely about the war was ended (or about to be ended) not in Vietnam, where the US "won" every single battle it fought, but in the US, where social pressure brought political will to end the war and bring their solders home. They also covered the significant events, like students being shot dead on their home campus in the US, showing bleeding and dead bodies lying in the University car park. i'd not call that glossing over the subject myself.....
The simple fact is, if those commentators think the series was so bad and so misrepresentation, why don't they make their own 18hr long series on the war?
A really fascinating and sometimes horrific documentary.
Started reading up on My Lai last night after the last episode and have just watched ‘four hours in My Lai’.
https://youtu.be/1NwnnLnvQYA
The interview with Varnado Simpson and reading about him afterwards is very sobering.
Started reading up on My Lai last night after the last episode and have just watched ‘four hours in My Lai’.
https://youtu.be/1NwnnLnvQYA
The interview with Varnado Simpson and reading about him afterwards is very sobering.
marksx said:
I'm 6 episodes through this and agree it is an excellent documentary series.
Question though. I didn't realise until reading the thread the BBC version is edited/cropped.
Is it shortened episodes, or are whole episodes taken off?
Am I missing out by not seeing the full version?
Shortened episodes someone said. They have done it before (reference my comment on the original "Cosmos" series from 1980).Question though. I didn't realise until reading the thread the BBC version is edited/cropped.
Is it shortened episodes, or are whole episodes taken off?
Am I missing out by not seeing the full version?
Half way through and fantastic overview of that period, as someone said here, it should be required viewing at schools to see the general complexities, the political attitudes, how war is such a meat-grinder (the ex-VC who said 'no one wins or loses in war, it's just destruction' was pretty spot on), civilian attitudes, portrayal and social engineering by media and politic - and just how exactly the same problems, mind-sets and complexities re-occur with frightening regularity with little learnt from the past.
I mentioned this to my wife who thought that the graphic images (burning monks, dead babies, napalmed people, fields covered in corpses etc) would never be able to be shown to young people in todays inoffensive society, but I think a) it puts smaller problems into proper perspective and b) that's what war is, it's what Syria etc is suffering today and the more people realise and see the realities then perhaps the less 'theoretical' and sanitised the whole thing becomes and perhaps we'd be less inclined to send our teenagers off to die so a politician can be re-elected or someone doesn't lose too much face. Perish the thought...
I mentioned this to my wife who thought that the graphic images (burning monks, dead babies, napalmed people, fields covered in corpses etc) would never be able to be shown to young people in todays inoffensive society, but I think a) it puts smaller problems into proper perspective and b) that's what war is, it's what Syria etc is suffering today and the more people realise and see the realities then perhaps the less 'theoretical' and sanitised the whole thing becomes and perhaps we'd be less inclined to send our teenagers off to die so a politician can be re-elected or someone doesn't lose too much face. Perish the thought...
That may just be the most thought provoking documentary i've ever watched.
And the thing is, there is no justification, no why or what for. Thousands (millions) gave their lives for an ideal that could never be realised by either side. Only time can heal those sorts of wounds.
I'm not a liberal really, but i think that Doc should be made mandatory viewing (along with the classic "World at War" series) in our schools, so when our elected leaders stand up and threaten "fire and fury" on another nation we understand EXACTLY what that means.
On a brighter note, Vietnam looks like an amazing place to go!
And the thing is, there is no justification, no why or what for. Thousands (millions) gave their lives for an ideal that could never be realised by either side. Only time can heal those sorts of wounds.
I'm not a liberal really, but i think that Doc should be made mandatory viewing (along with the classic "World at War" series) in our schools, so when our elected leaders stand up and threaten "fire and fury" on another nation we understand EXACTLY what that means.
On a brighter note, Vietnam looks like an amazing place to go!
The bare faced lies of the politicians is pretty shocking, it must have felt really bad for US citizens when that was realised with the press releasing the leaked documents. America changed then with regards to how they viewed their Presidents, to a certain extent part of the American dream died with it.
What a waste of life that war was.
What a waste of life that war was.
Scabutz said:
I was searching through Sky Box Sets and on PBS America there is a WW2 documentary made by the same person who did this one, Ken Burns. Its 18 episodes of 1hr each. Going to start it once the Vietnam one has finished.
Ken Burns seems to have done a lot of documentaries - He did one on the American Civil war too and another which I can't recall the subject of, but I noticed his name on (Maybe civil rights or jazz or something...?)jsf said:
The bare faced lies of the politicians is pretty shocking, it must have felt really bad for US citizens when that was realised with the press releasing the leaked documents. America changed then with regards to how they viewed their Presidents, to a certain extent part of the American dream died with it.
What a waste of life most politicians are.
FTFY What a waste of life most politicians are.
M
Max_Torque said:
That may just be the most thought provoking documentary i've ever watched.
And the thing is, there is no justification, no why or what for. Thousands (millions) gave their lives for an ideal that could never be realised by either side. Only time can heal those sorts of wounds.
I'm not a liberal really, but i think that Doc should be made mandatory viewing (along with the classic "World at War" series) in our schools, so when our elected leaders stand up and threaten "fire and fury" on another nation we understand EXACTLY what that means.
On a brighter note, Vietnam looks like an amazing place to go!
You need to read and watch more stuff on the Vietnam war to understand it better than a 10 hour BBC Documentary. Both sides agreed that if America wanted to win, they could have by invading the North but it all became to Political and Politicians getting involved alot more with the military than instead of letting the Commanders just get on with it. Its a shame they dont do a post War debrief and look. On a side note, a friend of mine, her dad was one of the South Vietnamese heli pilots who commandeered a heli and took her mum to a ship.And the thing is, there is no justification, no why or what for. Thousands (millions) gave their lives for an ideal that could never be realised by either side. Only time can heal those sorts of wounds.
I'm not a liberal really, but i think that Doc should be made mandatory viewing (along with the classic "World at War" series) in our schools, so when our elected leaders stand up and threaten "fire and fury" on another nation we understand EXACTLY what that means.
On a brighter note, Vietnam looks like an amazing place to go!
Wars have always been fought over someones ideals though throughout history so its nothing new.
But yes, the name countryside is amazing, id recommend doing the motorbike tours that take you to non-touristy places and not just do the 5 'H's'
jsf said:
The bare faced lies of the politicians is pretty shocking, it must have felt really bad for US citizens when that was realised with the press releasing the leaked documents. America changed then with regards to how they viewed their Presidents, to a certain extent part of the American dream died with it.
What a waste of life that war was.
In the end, Vietnam got what most of its people really wanted - an independent and united country.What a waste of life that war was.
So, even though the Vietnam War was truly awful, was it a waste as far as the Vietnamese are concerned?
lemmingjames said:
You need to read and watch more stuff on the Vietnam war to understand it better than a 10 hour BBC Documentary. Both sides agreed that if America wanted to win, they could have by invading the North but it all became to Political and Politicians getting involved alot more with the military than instead of letting the Commanders just get on with it. Its a shame they dont do a post War debrief and look. On a side note, a friend of mine, her dad was one of the South Vietnamese heli pilots who commandeered a heli and took her mum to a ship.
Wars have always been fought over someones ideals though throughout history so its nothing new.
But yes, the name countryside is amazing, id recommend doing the motorbike tours that take you to non-touristy places and not just do the 5 'H's'
The war did not get "too political". It was already political, like all wars are. Generals would always like a fee hand to conduct a war the way they see fit. What they sometimes forget is that they are under the control of the politicians and it is the politicians who start and finish wars.Wars have always been fought over someones ideals though throughout history so its nothing new.
But yes, the name countryside is amazing, id recommend doing the motorbike tours that take you to non-touristy places and not just do the 5 'H's'
The main "political" problem as far as the Americans were was their lack of vision as to what represented an actual win. The North Vietnamese had a simple and clear objective - freedom and unification of their country. That was a political aim and one that was successfully achieved.
OK i should have worded it better then but the military was restricted in what it could do to 'win'
One of the main aims of the Americans was to stop Communism in the area, which it succeeded through its time of fighting and after. Ill try and find the report explaining this more eloquently than i ever could but it stopped it = win.
Though it wouldnt surprise me to learn the war was kept going as its a costly industry = someones getting rich but nobody is going to come out and say that lol
One of the main aims of the Americans was to stop Communism in the area, which it succeeded through its time of fighting and after. Ill try and find the report explaining this more eloquently than i ever could but it stopped it = win.
Though it wouldnt surprise me to learn the war was kept going as its a costly industry = someones getting rich but nobody is going to come out and say that lol
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