The Vietnam war BBC4
Discussion
King Herald said:
Telegrams delivered by taxi, to the wives of dead soldiers, breaking the bad news....seriously f
ked up, if it is indeed the way it was done.....
As mentioned in the film, this was the way it was supposed to happen (a taxi driver delivering the telegram), but because of his wife's efforts the US military changed it's procedure.ked up, if it is indeed the way it was done.....There's a bit about it here on his wifes Wiki page - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Compton_Moore#...
Edited by IanH755 on Thursday 2nd November 11:24
Up until the mid 1950s at least, even in the US, most people would not have had a telephone in the house. The situation by the mid 1960s would only have been marginally better. That would have been especially so in poorer and rural areas, where a lot of the lower ranks in the military would have had their families. So, a telegram would have been the quickest and most efficient method to notify.
And as for personal visits by (say) a military chaplain or a senior officer, that would just not have been practical. Over 58,000 US servicemen died during the Vietnam War. Given that mainstream US involvement ran from around 1964 to 1973, that works out at a weekly average of 111 deaths per week.
And as for personal visits by (say) a military chaplain or a senior officer, that would just not have been practical. Over 58,000 US servicemen died during the Vietnam War. Given that mainstream US involvement ran from around 1964 to 1973, that works out at a weekly average of 111 deaths per week.
King Herald said:
How would you want to be informed about the death of your wife or son in combat???
Telegram? Text? email? Or maybe someone in respectable military uniform appearing at your door and pretending the government actually give a damn?
The mistake is taking that 21st Century opinion about how military deaths are dealth with, and trying to make it fit a different time which had different expectations.Telegram? Text? email? Or maybe someone in respectable military uniform appearing at your door and pretending the government actually give a damn?
As the US military had been sending telegrams from WW1 to Korea - thats nearly 600,000 dead (not inc Vietnam) who had the taxi delivered telegram (also not including those "missing" which also got one) over 40+ years - military families knew what to expect should the worst happen and I suspect, from the lack of anti-government anger at the time (WW1 to Korea), most just got on with grieving and being angry at the enemy rather than blaming their own government, something which changed massively post-Vietnam where the Government became the focus of the death, not the enemy as before.
Also the logistics of the "modern way" of doing things didn't work for the times. For an example, had the UK been sending the now expected Officer, Chaplin etc to each family during WW1 then on 1 single day of the Somme we would have needed nearly 40,000 spare Chaplins/Officers for the 19,240 deaths just for visits, which is why things like telegrams were much "better" for the times.
Obviously times have changed so now we have much reduced death rates per day in our modern conflicts vs 3rd world countries so it's now the "done thing" to send people to visit the family, but should the US (or UK) ever be involved in a WW3 style war with huge casualty figures (say a low figure of 1000+ a day - compared to the somme 20,000) then that "done thing" will be ditched rapidly, there's just no time for niceties once the bodies pile up sadly.
Edited by IanH755 on Thursday 2nd November 18:33
King Herald said:
How would you want to be informed about the death of your wife or son in combat???
Telegram? Text? email? Or maybe someone in respectable military uniform appearing at your door and pretending the government actually give a damn?
See my above post...just not feasible if the scale is at the level it was during the Vietnam War. And, by and large, back then families did not expect to get personal treatment from the forces. Not like now where everybody wants to be treated like a special case - with phone calls or personal messages from the Pres.Telegram? Text? email? Or maybe someone in respectable military uniform appearing at your door and pretending the government actually give a damn?
Different times.
Different sentiments.
Eric Mc said:
See my above post...just not feasible if the scale is at the level it was during the Vietnam War. And, by and large, back then families did not expect to get personal treatment from the forces. Not like now where everybody wants to be treated like a special case - with phone calls or personal messages from the Pres.
Different times.
Different sentiments.
Good point. There was a time when the first the dead soldiers family would know was when they were forcibly kicked out of the accommodation, much like the family of dead miners, sweat shop and factory workers, and other such tied-accommodation labour force personnel. Different times.
Different sentiments.
I think sentiments began to change in the second half of the 19th century - like with a lot of things. Around that time, the powers that be began to treat "lesser mortals" with some degree of respect.
The use of telegrams to notify families would have been looked on as a vast improvement on what went on before. By the late 1960s it was probably becoming a very old fashioned way of communicating, but telegrams were still fairly common into the 1980s.
The use of telegrams to notify families would have been looked on as a vast improvement on what went on before. By the late 1960s it was probably becoming a very old fashioned way of communicating, but telegrams were still fairly common into the 1980s.
One thing that seems to have been a bit overlooked (haven't seen the entire season) was that the American (and Australian) soldiers were made up of soldiers and conscripts.
Can you imagine drawing a death lottery to send your citizens off the fight a pointless war driven by ideology that had very little impact on your own country? What kind of sociopath would you have to be to implement such a system?
Can you imagine drawing a death lottery to send your citizens off the fight a pointless war driven by ideology that had very little impact on your own country? What kind of sociopath would you have to be to implement such a system?
Colonial said:
One thing that seems to have been a bit overlooked (haven't seen the entire season) was that the American (and Australian) soldiers were made up of soldiers and conscripts.
Can you imagine drawing a death lottery to send your citizens off the fight a pointless war driven by ideology that had very little impact on your own country? What kind of sociopath would you have to be to implement such a system?
Particularly since the US carried on doing it even after they knew they weren't going to win - IIRC the draft carried on for another two years after that.Can you imagine drawing a death lottery to send your citizens off the fight a pointless war driven by ideology that had very little impact on your own country? What kind of sociopath would you have to be to implement such a system?
Colonial said:
One thing that seems to have been a bit overlooked (haven't seen the entire season) was that the American (and Australian) soldiers were made up of soldiers and conscripts.
Can you imagine drawing a death lottery to send your citizens off the fight a pointless war driven by ideology that had very little impact on your own country? What kind of sociopath would you have to be to implement such a system?
It was mentioned a number of times, particularly how those drafted were from the more deprived and lower social strata and how those from better off backgrounds were able to avoid being called up. Can you imagine drawing a death lottery to send your citizens off the fight a pointless war driven by ideology that had very little impact on your own country? What kind of sociopath would you have to be to implement such a system?
They also mentioned the exodus of draftees to Canada.
Enjoyed the series. Living in the US for 12 years I met many who served there, at least 1/2 volunteered b4 the serious drafts started. Never met one guy who didn't think it was their duty to serve.
AS I joined the RN in 1973, I found the war curious and always had a hankering to visit Vietnam so I did for a month 2 years ago and found the country and its people very nice.
AS I joined the RN in 1973, I found the war curious and always had a hankering to visit Vietnam so I did for a month 2 years ago and found the country and its people very nice.
BrotherMouzone said:
I’m not a pacifist, but seriously, ‘War, what is it good for........’
Some people make massive fortunes out of war. The USA made a mint out of WW2, supplying industry to both sides, Henry Ford and many others selling trucks, engines etc to Germany, at the same time GIs were dying in combat.
I assume it was much the same in most wars.
King Herald said:
BrotherMouzone said:
I’m not a pacifist, but seriously, ‘War, what is it good for........’
Some people make massive fortunes out of war. The USA made a mint out of WW2, supplying industry to both sides, Henry Ford and many others selling trucks, engines etc to Germany, at the same time GIs were dying in combat.
I assume it was much the same in most wars.
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