The Vietnam war BBC4

[Eric Mc]

Not only that, the main issue was that it undermined national confidence in a way that has never really recovered.

[lemmingjames]

mikal83 said:

Enjoyed the series. Living in the US for 12 years I met many who served there, at least 1/2 volunteered b4 the serious drafts started. Never met one guy who didn't think it was their duty to serve.
AS I joined the RN in 1973, I found the war curious and always had a hankering to visit Vietnam so I did for a month 2 years ago and found the country and its people very nice.

IF you volunteered, there was a chance that you wouldnt get sent to Vietnam and the possibility of going to Officer Training School. Whereas draftees = Nam

[mikal83]

lemmingjames said:

mikal83 said:

Enjoyed the series. Living in the US for 12 years I met many who served there, at least 1/2 volunteered b4 the serious drafts started. Never met one guy who didn't think it was their duty to serve.
AS I joined the RN in 1973, I found the war curious and always had a hankering to visit Vietnam so I did for a month 2 years ago and found the country and its people very nice.

IF you volunteered, there was a chance that you wouldnt get sent to Vietnam and the possibility of going to Officer Training School. Whereas draftees = Nam

No that's quite wrong

[lemmingjames]

i stand to be corrected then but thats what ive read in various autobiographies

[mikal83]

lemmingjames said:

i stand to be corrected then but thats what ive read in various autobiographies

The draft started in 1969, years after the VW started. All marines, Navy, Air force were volunteers or original fulltimers. During the draft only Army and Marines were affected, Navy and Air farce had enough volunteers..

A very good friend of mine volunteered in 1965, (Marines), he was shot twice in the head, minor wounds but volunteered to go back again but was told he had done his duty. Another good friend a Canadian joined the Navy and spent his tour of duty working in the ships laundry as his aircraft carrier went around Tonkin bay in a box section.

For instance in 1968 there were over 1/2 million US military in Vietnam. They weren't all officers!

You couldn't be more wrong.
.

Edited by mikal83 on Sunday 5th November 12:59

[Eric Mc]

What was the ratio of volunteers to draftees overall and did that ratio change as the war progressed and public opinion in the US gradually turned against it?

[mikal83]

Eric Mc said:

What was the ratio of volunteers to draftees overall and did that ratio change as the war progressed and public opinion in the US gradually turned against it?

When? Google it

[Eric Mc]

mikal83 said:

Eric Mc said:

What was the ratio of volunteers to draftees overall and did that ratio change as the war progressed and public opinion in the US gradually turned against it?

When? Google it

I engage in these discussions to chat and to learn from other PHers. If I Googled everything I wouldn't need to ask here

I was thinking over the whole period of America's engagement - say from 1964 to 1969/70 (the peak year of personnel deployments). I get the impression that there were more volunteers in the early years and the numbers would have dropped off as the news started coming through that this war may not have been the most worthwhile one America needed to be fighting.

Also, the type of people engaged in the different services would have been very different. Generally, those serving in the Air Force or Navy would have been technically qualified individuals, from pilots to aircraft mechanics and deck handlers. The bulk of the draftees would have been put into the Army as infantry.

[mikal83]

Eric Mc said:

mikal83 said:

Eric Mc said:

What was the ratio of volunteers to draftees overall and did that ratio change as the war progressed and public opinion in the US gradually turned against it?

When? Google it

I engage in these discussions to chat and to learn from other PHers. If I Googled everything I wouldn't need to ask here

I was thinking over the whole period of America's engagement - say from 1964 to 1969/70 (the peak year of personnel deployments). I get the impression that there were more volunteers in the early years and the numbers would have dropped off as the news started coming through that this war may not have been the most worthwhile one America needed to be fighting.

Also, the type of people engaged in the different services would have been very different. Generally, those serving in the Air Force or Navy would have been technically qualified individuals, from pilots to aircraft mechanics and deck handlers. The bulk of the draftees would have been put into the Army as infantry.

Please re read my reply above. The draft started 1969 so ALL service personel b4 that we ALL volunteers/existing full time service personel.
I have no idea of any ratios other than that

[Eric Mc]

Was that because the supply of volunteers dried up?

I get the impression that from 1967 on the view of what the war was about began to change and simple patriotism was no longer going to motivate a lot of young men like it might have done only a couple of years earlier.

[Colonial]

In Australia the draft was introduced because people were no longer signing up to pointlessly die in a foreign land in a conflict that had zero to do with Australia.

[Eric Mc]

In the UK, former Prime Minister Harold Wilson generally doesn't get a great press these days. However, I think his greatest achievement as PM was keeping the UK out of the Vietnam War. He was put under great pressure by the Johnson Administration but resisted this pressure strongly.

I do know there was some minor involvement as Special Forces level (I even know a chap who was involved) but the UK did not supply aircraft or mainstream ground forces or naval forces.

[marcosgt]

Colonial said:

In Australia the draft was introduced because people were no longer signing up to pointlessly die in a foreign land in a conflict that had zero to do with Australia.

The Australian involvement wasn't really more than mentioned in passing in the TV series.

Anyone know what the rationale was for Australia getting involved in Vietnam, especially as Britain and Canada were so trenchant in their refusal to do so?

Was it just a political fear of the rise of Communism in the Far East or something else?

M

[lemmingjames]

mikal83 said:

The draft started in 1969, years after the VW started. All marines, Navy, Air force were volunteers or original fulltimers. During the draft only Army and Marines were affected, Navy and Air farce had enough volunteers..

A very good friend of mine volunteered in 1965, (Marines), he was shot twice in the head, minor wounds but volunteered to go back again but was told he had done his duty. Another good friend a Canadian joined the Navy and spent his tour of duty working in the ships laundry as his aircraft carrier went around Tonkin bay in a box section.

For instance in 1968 there were over 1/2 million US military in Vietnam. They weren't all officers!

You couldn't be more wrong.
.

Edited by mikal83 on Sunday 5th November 12:59

So im wrong by the fact that you use references to pre-draft and everyone being out there being a volunteer yet i said if you drafted = Nam, Volunteered = possible other career choices and locations?!

How many draftees made it into being an Officer? How many draftees didnt get sent to Nam? As opposed to those that volunteered at the time? Also if you volunteered (at around the same time as the draft), then you turning up could for training was delayed for a few more months as well

[lemmingjames]

marcosgt said:

The Australian involvement wasn't really more than mentioned in passing in the TV series.

Anyone know what the rationale was for Australia getting involved in Vietnam, especially as Britain and Canada were so trenchant in their refusal to do so?

Was it just a political fear of the rise of Communism in the Far East or something else?

M

Pretty much yes, Oz was scared of the way Communism was spreading towards it

Britain stayed out as Korea and Oman cost us to much basically

[mikal83]

lemmingjames said:

mikal83 said:

The draft started in 1969, years after the VW started. All marines, Navy, Air force were volunteers or original fulltimers. During the draft only Army and Marines were affected, Navy and Air farce had enough volunteers..

A very good friend of mine volunteered in 1965, (Marines), he was shot twice in the head, minor wounds but volunteered to go back again but was told he had done his duty. Another good friend a Canadian joined the Navy and spent his tour of duty working in the ships laundry as his aircraft carrier went around Tonkin bay in a box section.

For instance in 1968 there were over 1/2 million US military in Vietnam. They weren't all officers!

You couldn't be more wrong.
.

Edited by mikal83 on Sunday 5th November 12:59

So im wrong by the fact that you use references to pre-draft and everyone being out there being a volunteer yet i said if you drafted = Nam, Volunteered = possible other career choices and locations?!

How many draftees made it into being an Officer? How many draftees didnt get sent to Nam? As opposed to those that volunteered at the time? Also if you volunteered (at around the same time as the draft), then you turning up could for training was delayed for a few more months as well

I have no idea what the heck you are on about, sorry.

[Colonial]

marcosgt said:

The Australian involvement wasn't really more than mentioned in passing in the TV series.

Anyone know what the rationale was for Australia getting involved in Vietnam, especially as Britain and Canada were so trenchant in their refusal to do so?

Was it just a political fear of the rise of Communism in the Far East or something else?

M

This was a central focus of my history degree (post-WW1 social and public history in Australia).

2 schools of thought which are kind of entwined.

The first is that there was a legitimate fear pf the domino theory from a insular and conservative government. That when Vietnam went communist then the yellow hordes from China would sweep down through Vietnam, Thailand and Indonesia before swarming over Australia. This was very popular rhetoric of the time.

The second is to do with WW2 hangups. After the fall of Singapore the UK essentially abandoned Australia as it focused on Europe. This was a huge blow for the national psyche. The U.S. filled the void (because Australia is very uncertain of it's place in Asia). So, in order to firm up that new power dynamic the government of the time blindly supported the U.S.

Happy to go into more detail on this.

[Eric Mc]

marcosgt said:

The Australian involvement wasn't really more than mentioned in passing in the TV series.

Anyone know what the rationale was for Australia getting involved in Vietnam, especially as Britain and Canada were so trenchant in their refusal to do so?

Was it just a political fear of the rise of Communism in the Far East or something else?

M

SEATO - South East Asia Treaty Organisation. It is the Pacific Rim version of NATO. Australia and New Zealand felt they had a commitment under their SEATO obligations.

[lemmingjames]

mikal83 said:

lemmingjames said:

mikal83 said:

The draft started in 1969, years after the VW started. All marines, Navy, Air force were volunteers or original fulltimers. During the draft only Army and Marines were affected, Navy and Air farce had enough volunteers..

A very good friend of mine volunteered in 1965, (Marines), he was shot twice in the head, minor wounds but volunteered to go back again but was told he had done his duty. Another good friend a Canadian joined the Navy and spent his tour of duty working in the ships laundry as his aircraft carrier went around Tonkin bay in a box section.

For instance in 1968 there were over 1/2 million US military in Vietnam. They weren't all officers!

You couldn't be more wrong.
.

Edited by mikal83 on Sunday 5th November 12:59

So im wrong by the fact that you use references to pre-draft and everyone being out there being a volunteer yet i said if you drafted = Nam, Volunteered = possible other career choices and locations?!

How many draftees made it into being an Officer? How many draftees didnt get sent to Nam? As opposed to those that volunteered at the time? Also if you volunteered (at around the same time as the draft), then you turning up could for training was delayed for a few more months as well

I have no idea what the heck you are on about, sorry.

So you tell me im wrong about the destinations of where Draftees/Volunteers went but then have no recollection of telling me im wrong by using references to people you know pre-draft era

[mikal83]

lemmingjames said:

mikal83 said:

lemmingjames said:

mikal83 said:

The draft started in 1969, years after the VW started. All marines, Navy, Air force were volunteers or original fulltimers. During the draft only Army and Marines were affected, Navy and Air farce had enough volunteers..

A very good friend of mine volunteered in 1965, (Marines), he was shot twice in the head, minor wounds but volunteered to go back again but was told he had done his duty. Another good friend a Canadian joined the Navy and spent his tour of duty working in the ships laundry as his aircraft carrier went around Tonkin bay in a box section.

For instance in 1968 there were over 1/2 million US military in Vietnam. They weren't all officers!

You couldn't be more wrong.
.

Edited by mikal83 on Sunday 5th November 12:59

So im wrong by the fact that you use references to pre-draft and everyone being out there being a volunteer yet i said if you drafted = Nam, Volunteered = possible other career choices and locations?!

How many draftees made it into being an Officer? How many draftees didnt get sent to Nam? As opposed to those that volunteered at the time? Also if you volunteered (at around the same time as the draft), then you turning up could for training was delayed for a few more months as well

I have no idea what the heck you are on about, sorry.

So you tell me im wrong about the destinations of where Draftees/Volunteers went but then have no recollection of telling me im wrong by using references to people you know pre-draft era

I still have no idea what the heck you are on about.

Let try this simple answer for you.

Prior to 1969 ie "The Draft" they were all volunteers. Now the vast vast majority were enlisted men. They were based all over the place and quite a lot .....................didn't go to Vietnam at all. OK so far, good. Now after the draft started, there were still a heck of a lot of volunteers joining up and they too DIDNT all go to Vietnam.
OK.........what the % of the men in Vietnam enlisted v draftees that's for you to find.

Now from what you have written, your saying that all the volunteers that joined up AFTER the draft started, DIDNT go to Vietnam. Is that right or wrong??
AND that all those that volunteered AFTER the draft started were Officers and they also DIDNT go to Vietnam. Is that right or wrong.

Do you PERSONALLY know anyone that actually went over there..........I do, quite a few....All were volunteers.