Solo: A Star Wars Story
Discussion
Moonhawk said:
Maybe Star Wars has had it's day. The world is a very different place today than it was in the 1970s. The key points which made Star Wars so successful are mostly no longer valid.
As the video points out - we are now further away in time from ANH than ANH was from the end of world war 2 - and at the time ANH was released, the cold war was still very much a thing, the Berlin wall was still up.
The story hasn't really moved on and I think people have difficulty identifying with the 'big bad empire' concept today as it doesn't really reflect anything that is in existence or is a real threat.
There are a few sabre rattling moments from Russia and North Korea - but nobody realistically expects there to be another Nazi led world war, cold war or Cuban missile crisis.
Without advancing Star Wars far into it's own future - i'm not really sure how the narrative could be changed, and even then, if you lose the familiar concepts of the Jedi, the force, the 'empire/rebels etc - then it stops being Star Wars anyway. Star Wars is basically typecast by it's own success.
There have been no original concepts introduced in the new movies. We have simply got bigger versions of the same super-weapons, bigger versions of the same capital ships, lightsabers with more light....thingies, we have emperor 2.0, vader 2.0, R2-D2 2.0 and vinyl wrapped x-wings and tie-fighters.
Even the concept of a female Jedi/force user lead character isn't a new one within the Star Wars canon (Ahsoka Tano), let alone the wider literature (Mara Jade, Jaina Solo etc).
Star Wars cannot survive by simply recycling old ideas and relying on nostalgia for existing characters and concepts. Sooner or later - all those original Star Wars fans will start to die off, most of them are already well into their 50s and 60s.
I am a fair bit younger than that and still have fond childhood memories of Star Wars, so a large part of the original fan base aren't going to be dying off any time soon. As the video points out - we are now further away in time from ANH than ANH was from the end of world war 2 - and at the time ANH was released, the cold war was still very much a thing, the Berlin wall was still up.
The story hasn't really moved on and I think people have difficulty identifying with the 'big bad empire' concept today as it doesn't really reflect anything that is in existence or is a real threat.
There are a few sabre rattling moments from Russia and North Korea - but nobody realistically expects there to be another Nazi led world war, cold war or Cuban missile crisis.
Without advancing Star Wars far into it's own future - i'm not really sure how the narrative could be changed, and even then, if you lose the familiar concepts of the Jedi, the force, the 'empire/rebels etc - then it stops being Star Wars anyway. Star Wars is basically typecast by it's own success.
There have been no original concepts introduced in the new movies. We have simply got bigger versions of the same super-weapons, bigger versions of the same capital ships, lightsabers with more light....thingies, we have emperor 2.0, vader 2.0, R2-D2 2.0 and vinyl wrapped x-wings and tie-fighters.
Even the concept of a female Jedi/force user lead character isn't a new one within the Star Wars canon (Ahsoka Tano), let alone the wider literature (Mara Jade, Jaina Solo etc).
Star Wars cannot survive by simply recycling old ideas and relying on nostalgia for existing characters and concepts. Sooner or later - all those original Star Wars fans will start to die off, most of them are already well into their 50s and 60s.
I would agree that AFA was very derivative of ANH, however it did have a few new ideas in the stormtrooper who rebelled and most people only watch the movies so a female main character Jedi was still new.
The problems facing the franchise are two fold IMO.
Firstly the identity politics and linked in with the politics the fact they are attacking the largest part of their fan base.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/790495/star-wa...
(this opened for me first time but not the second. It shows that for many SW movies twice as many males than females had seen them)
The young guys probably have this sort of nonsense all the time at modern universities. For the original fan base this is very jarring however. It is unproven IMO that this sort of identity politics has any more appeal with the mass female market than it does with the male. Certainly it is going down like a lead balloon in some more conservative Asian markets.
This can be tackled easily enough however. Have a sacrificial lamb (Kennedy). I don't think for a moment that this was all down to her given the echoes with other Disney owned franchises, but this is mainly as a way of drawing a line under it. Then put someone in charge who actually cares about making good movies. With the right conciliatory steps the fans can be brought back.
Another issue though is that while AFA set up many good ideas to explore over a trilogy TLJ shut most of them down. Is anyone exciting to be rushing to see Ep9 at the cinema?. What Disney probable should do, but almost certainly wont, is delay Ep9 so it becomes a soft reboot. Get rid of some of the duller characters and bring in some new.
In the meantime make some stand alone movies in the Star Wars universe, give them to good directors and writers and try and get some credibility back in the franchise. If Solo had been made for $150m it would have been profitable if the estimates of Blu Ray sales etc are right, so make these stand alone movies for that.
Finally it is not just Star Wars that has a creativity problem but the whole of Hollywood. Most blockbusters come from book/comic adaptations, pre existing franchises, even theme park rides. One of the few making original movies is Nolan.
That doesn't mean that Star Wars is finished however. Jurassic World had no great creativity it was simply a well made enjoyable movie set in a familiar franchise and it made massive amounts of money. Star Wars does have elements that remain iconic and a good basis for stories, such as the force, given to people who care about it it can be very successful again.
Edited by JagLover on Monday 11th June 06:20
Moonhawk said:
Do they though?
Sequels doing better than the originals is a fairly rare event. They are generally considered poorer films and usually take less money at the box office (when adjusted for inflation). Just look at Ghostbusters, Alien etc.
Sometimes you'll get a bigger second movie off the back of a decent first one - but if the series continues, the trend normally reverts downwards. This can be seen in the Matrix, Transformers, Lethal Weapon, Die Hard etc.
There aren't many franchises where each subsequent sequel earns more at the box office than the one that preceded it. The only series I have found so far that does so is the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
If Star Wars is on this downward trend (as it appears to be), it'll be difficult to turn it back around.
When talking about sequels, I was thinking of the very popular Marvel franchise. Clearly, cinema goers haven't got bored with this yet.Sequels doing better than the originals is a fairly rare event. They are generally considered poorer films and usually take less money at the box office (when adjusted for inflation). Just look at Ghostbusters, Alien etc.
Sometimes you'll get a bigger second movie off the back of a decent first one - but if the series continues, the trend normally reverts downwards. This can be seen in the Matrix, Transformers, Lethal Weapon, Die Hard etc.
There aren't many franchises where each subsequent sequel earns more at the box office than the one that preceded it. The only series I have found so far that does so is the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
If Star Wars is on this downward trend (as it appears to be), it'll be difficult to turn it back around.
Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 11th June 00:00
chris watton said:
When talking about sequels, I was thinking of the very popular Marvel franchise. Clearly, cinema goers haven't got bored with this yet.
But the MCU appears to be the exception rather than the rule. With the release of Ant Man and The Wasp (which i'm sure will be a success) - it'll be 20 movies, pretty much without a bust.It is completely unprecedented in it's scope and success.
I bet Disney thought they could buy up Star Wars and make it into the next MCU with rapid fire movie releases. It must be dawning on them that it's just not that simple.
I for one hope Disney don't get their paws on the MCU - they'll likely screw that up too, unless they keep Feige and allow him to continue with the level of control he has exercised so far.
Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 11th June 10:27
I think there are sequels and then there are the new franchises. Bond was the only real franchise way back and that was a very strict one.
Everybody now wants a franchise, as if they can be conjured out of thin air.
Marvel were small, they'd been bummed many times over their rights and had many money troubles and had to start with the foundation stone, which was successful, and they then made baby steps until they've now become this monster, who knows when their master plan was laid out, but Feige has executed it like Bret the Hitman Hart. Everyone has seen this, everyone is copying and no one is replicating, because no-one wants to lay out a nice accumulator for 12+ years. They also lack the creativity, I know it feels like the comic book films are all generic, but what IW has managed to do, to create an event film where all the character progression has occurred in the previous ten years is pretty darn new, original, creative, whatever you like, it's groundbreaking.
The biggest trouble with SW (OK one of them) is there is a lack of vision, three different people engaged to write the three different films of the new trilogy. Huh? LUcas had a vision, he knew where the prequels were gonna end up, and he had an endgame back when filming empire.
It was his baby. Today, it's just some money person (KK) who in her suit is dictating which film gets pumped out next.
Everybody now wants a franchise, as if they can be conjured out of thin air.
Marvel were small, they'd been bummed many times over their rights and had many money troubles and had to start with the foundation stone, which was successful, and they then made baby steps until they've now become this monster, who knows when their master plan was laid out, but Feige has executed it like Bret the Hitman Hart. Everyone has seen this, everyone is copying and no one is replicating, because no-one wants to lay out a nice accumulator for 12+ years. They also lack the creativity, I know it feels like the comic book films are all generic, but what IW has managed to do, to create an event film where all the character progression has occurred in the previous ten years is pretty darn new, original, creative, whatever you like, it's groundbreaking.
The biggest trouble with SW (OK one of them) is there is a lack of vision, three different people engaged to write the three different films of the new trilogy. Huh? LUcas had a vision, he knew where the prequels were gonna end up, and he had an endgame back when filming empire.
It was his baby. Today, it's just some money person (KK) who in her suit is dictating which film gets pumped out next.
Moonhawk said:
But the MCU appears to be the exception rather than the rule. With the release of Ant Man and The Wasp (which i'm sure will be a success) - it'll be 20 movies, pretty much without a bust.
It is completely unprecedented in it's scope and success.
I bet Disney thought they could buy up Star Wars and make it into the next MCU with rapid fire movie releases. It must be dawning on them that it's just not that simple.
I for one hope Disney don't get their paws on the MCU - they'll likely screw that up too, unless they keep Feige and allow him to continue with the level of control he has exercised so far.
Disney already have their paws on it to some extent as in September 2015, according to Wikipedia, Marvel Studios was integrated into Disney Studios and Feige reports to the Walt Disney Studio chairman.It is completely unprecedented in it's scope and success.
I bet Disney thought they could buy up Star Wars and make it into the next MCU with rapid fire movie releases. It must be dawning on them that it's just not that simple.
I for one hope Disney don't get their paws on the MCU - they'll likely screw that up too, unless they keep Feige and allow him to continue with the level of control he has exercised so far.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the future, but Marvel took a very different path to Lucas Films. Their characters are clearly based in the comics before the millennium. They have kept a broad base of fans happy as a result and go from strength to strength. This is not to say all their movies are perfect but in the main they give the fans what they want and expect.
Halb said:
I think there are sequels and then there are the new franchises. Bond was the only real franchise way back and that was a very strict one.
Everybody now wants a franchise, as if they can be conjured out of thin air.
Marvel were small, they'd been bummed many times over their rights and had many money troubles and had to start with the foundation stone, which was successful, and they then made baby steps until they've now become this monster, who knows when their master plan was laid out, but Feige has executed it like Bret the Hitman Hart. Everyone has seen this, everyone is copying and no one is replicating, because no-one wants to lay out a nice accumulator for 12+ years. They also lack the creativity, I know it feels like the comic book films are all generic, but what IW has managed to do, to create an event film where all the character progression has occurred in the previous ten years is pretty darn new, original, creative, whatever you like, it's groundbreaking.
The biggest trouble with SW (OK one of them) is there is a lack of vision, three different people engaged to write the three different films of the new trilogy. Huh? LUcas had a vision, he knew where the prequels were gonna end up, and he had an endgame back when filming empire.
It was his baby. Today, it's just some money person (KK) who in her suit is dictating which film gets pumped out next.
Like the way you worked in a Bret Hart analogy.Everybody now wants a franchise, as if they can be conjured out of thin air.
Marvel were small, they'd been bummed many times over their rights and had many money troubles and had to start with the foundation stone, which was successful, and they then made baby steps until they've now become this monster, who knows when their master plan was laid out, but Feige has executed it like Bret the Hitman Hart. Everyone has seen this, everyone is copying and no one is replicating, because no-one wants to lay out a nice accumulator for 12+ years. They also lack the creativity, I know it feels like the comic book films are all generic, but what IW has managed to do, to create an event film where all the character progression has occurred in the previous ten years is pretty darn new, original, creative, whatever you like, it's groundbreaking.
The biggest trouble with SW (OK one of them) is there is a lack of vision, three different people engaged to write the three different films of the new trilogy. Huh? LUcas had a vision, he knew where the prequels were gonna end up, and he had an endgame back when filming empire.
It was his baby. Today, it's just some money person (KK) who in her suit is dictating which film gets pumped out next.
According to that video posted Feige offered to consult for Lucas Film when they were trying to build a new franchise. Kennedy turned him down....
Tongue in cheek review - especially the "pansexual land" bit 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=texYhVa2ddU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=texYhVa2ddU
RLM comes up with an idea to save star wars. 
6mins
Scientist Man's Plan to Save Star Wars
https://youtu.be/XQmKabdArUg6mins
Halb said:
RLM comes up with an idea to save star wars.
6mins
You still not saw this Halb?Scientist Man's Plan to Save Star Wars
https://youtu.be/XQmKabdArUg6mins
zb said:
You still not saw this Halb?
I haven't. I have not desire to. It took effort to go watch Deapool2, which I felt was an OK retread of the first film. I just watched JW2, I should have learned.I've been to the flicks...I think, three times this year, and felt let down twice. From the sounds of some of the choices made (name, chewi'e name, plot lacking any sense, ...just all of it), I'll come away empty, so best just to not go...I'm interested now in the handling of the property as an observer.
If you watch the RLM thing, I thought to myself, would I pay 100 bucks to go watch a SW film? If it was a special thing, with an orchestra, and if it was either Star Wars, Empire or Jedi, the unf
ked pre-1997 versions, then yeah, I would. But apart from that, no.Halb said:
I haven't. I have not desire to. It took effort to go watch Deapool2, which I felt was an OK retread of the first film. I just watched JW2, I should have learned.
I've been to the flicks...I think, three times this year, and felt let down twice. From the sounds of some of the choices made (name, chewi'e name, plot lacking any sense, ...just all of it), I'll come away empty, so best just to not go...I'm interested now in the handling of the property as an observer.
If you watch the RLM thing, I thought to myself, would I pay 100 bucks to go watch a SW film? If it was a special thing, with an orchestra, and if it was either Star Wars, Empire or Jedi, the unfked pre-1997 versions, then yeah, I would. But apart from that, no.
Did you see the last jedi?I've been to the flicks...I think, three times this year, and felt let down twice. From the sounds of some of the choices made (name, chewi'e name, plot lacking any sense, ...just all of it), I'll come away empty, so best just to not go...I'm interested now in the handling of the property as an observer.
If you watch the RLM thing, I thought to myself, would I pay 100 bucks to go watch a SW film? If it was a special thing, with an orchestra, and if it was either Star Wars, Empire or Jedi, the unf
ked pre-1997 versions, then yeah, I would. But apart from that, no.zb said:
Did you see the last jedi?
Yeah, I watched it about a week after it came out. I thought it was fairly bad, a lot didn't make sense, and a lot of it was misjudged, a shame because it looked great and there were good nuggets there, stuff that could have been great in different hands, but it just felt like it was written by someone who had had SW explained to them via a Korean textbook or something. It basically helped to ease me out the door as a fan.Halb said:
Yeah, I watched it about a week after it came out. I thought it was fairly bad, a lot didn't make sense, and a lot of it was misjudged, a shame because it looked great and there were good nuggets there, stuff that could have been great in different hands, but it just felt like it was written by someone who had had SW explained to them via a Korean textbook or something. It basically helped to ease me out the door as a fan.
I understand why you're utterly disillusioned.On RLM: I agree with a lot of their opinions, I still think they're a bunch of joyless dicks that could do with getting their paroxitine dose upped.
As for Solo: you need to see it twice.
The first time because you're waiting for it to descend into and absolute s
te show like the last jedi. The second so you can just relax sit back and enjoy that Ron Howard has made a f
king good Star Wars movie.zb said:
I understand why you're utterly disillusioned.
On RLM: I agree with a lot of their opinions, I still think they're a bunch of joyless dicks that could do with getting their paroxitine dose upped.
As for Solo: you need to see it twice.
The first time because you're waiting for it to descend into and absolute ste show like the last jedi.
The second so you can just relax sit back and enjoy that Ron Howard has made a fking good Star Wars movie.
that made me chuckle. On RLM: I agree with a lot of their opinions, I still think they're a bunch of joyless dicks that could do with getting their paroxitine dose upped.
As for Solo: you need to see it twice.
The first time because you're waiting for it to descend into and absolute s
te show like the last jedi. The second so you can just relax sit back and enjoy that Ron Howard has made a f
king good Star Wars movie.Read a couple of media articles this week about how and why Solo is tanking at the box office.
Amazing how they all seem to been in denial about (or maybe not allowed to mention lest they offend the mighty disney) the likelihood that its mostly a kickback against the massive disappointment of TLJ rather than a fault with Solo itself.
I enjoyed Solo, it was lighter than most of the StarWars universe (not the same depth of meaning and more mid grey than the dark & light contrast in the originals etc) but still an entertaining watch.
Amazing how they all seem to been in denial about (or maybe not allowed to mention lest they offend the mighty disney) the likelihood that its mostly a kickback against the massive disappointment of TLJ rather than a fault with Solo itself.
I enjoyed Solo, it was lighter than most of the StarWars universe (not the same depth of meaning and more mid grey than the dark & light contrast in the originals etc) but still an entertaining watch.
Edited by GravelBen on Saturday 16th June 03:55
GravelBen said:
Read a couple of media articles this week about how and why Solo is tanking at the box office.
Amazing how they all seem to been in denial about (or maybe not allowed to mention lest they offend the mighty disney) the likelihood that its mostly a kickback against the massive disappointment of TLJ rather than a fault with Solo itself.
I enjoyed Solo, it was lighter than most of the StarWars universe (not the same depth of meaning and more mid grey than the dark & light contrast in the originals etc) but still an entertaining watch.
Amazing how they all seem to been in denial about (or maybe not allowed to mention lest they offend the mighty disney) the likelihood that its mostly a kickback against the massive disappointment of TLJ rather than a fault with Solo itself.
I enjoyed Solo, it was lighter than most of the StarWars universe (not the same depth of meaning and more mid grey than the dark & light contrast in the originals etc) but still an entertaining watch.
I caught it mid-week (thanks to the Meerkats). There were 6 people in the theatre and they got to see a half-decent movie. It still had a lot wrong with it but not nearly as much as TLJ. Alden Ehrenreich was stand-out for delivering an utterly convincing young Han Solo (as opposed to a young Harrison Ford) and Woody Harrelson and Paul Bettany aced their parts.
I agree with the commentators who have already said it answered a load of questions no-one asked in totally ham-fisted ways - all the more annoying because the movie would have worked just as well if not better without the big signposted references.
It's actually a bit of a shame that it looks like the proposed sequels will be canned because it set up an excellent new storyline in the Star Wars universe that could have had room to breathe because they got all the legacy s
t out the way in the first movie. Solo could have become the 'Better Call Saul' to Star Wars' 'Breaking Bad'.Edited by r11co on Saturday 16th June 08:56
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