Le Mans ‘66, Ford vs. Ferrari - movie
Discussion
Absolutely - even now the identity of Le Mans winning drivers is really only of passing interest . It is all about the car , even more so in the Ford/Ferrari wars. Nobody gave a damn for class wins- except possibly those who had won.
And now I keep seeing references to Le Mans winning Aston Martins - odd , given that they haven't won since 1959 .... Class wins yes , but calling that' winning Le Mans' is being very economical with the actualite - the 2017 'winning 'Aston finishing 17th , and 27 laps behind the winner....
Wonder how Aston would have felt about Panhard boasting they'd won the 1959 race - another class win , just the 65 laps behind the winning DBR1 ?
And now I keep seeing references to Le Mans winning Aston Martins - odd , given that they haven't won since 1959 .... Class wins yes , but calling that' winning Le Mans' is being very economical with the actualite - the 2017 'winning 'Aston finishing 17th , and 27 laps behind the winner....
Wonder how Aston would have felt about Panhard boasting they'd won the 1959 race - another class win , just the 65 laps behind the winning DBR1 ?
thegreenhell said:
Halmyre said:
RobXjcoupe said:
Eric Mc said:
I'm still looking for the actual "duel" that everybody goes on about.
In what Le Mans year was Ferrari and Ford pitted directly against each other in the same class?
1966 Ferrari p4 and ford gt40 was the ford 1st 2nd and 3rdIn what Le Mans year was Ferrari and Ford pitted directly against each other in the same class?
Ford were always one class higher (engine size) than the Ferraris, right through from 1964 to 1967.
Interestingly however, in 1969 the winning 5 litre Ford GT40 managed 372 laps to the 1967 winner's 388. That would have given it fourth place in 1967, and first in 1966 (inasmuch as you can compare year-to-year results).
coppice said:
Nice story but a very long way from the truth . The reality was that Ford and Ferrari were very close to finalising the deal under which Ford would buy Ferrari but on the basis that Enzo would still be in exclusive charge of the race team . Just before the deal was signed off the Ferrari people (including Enzo ) had one last review of the documentation - and whilst the price and key terms were right , Ford had introduced cost caps into what the race team could spend without Ford approval . Enzo went ballistic and told Ford to forget it.
And , contrary to the view expressed in the last post, the Ford v Ferrari battle was HUGE in period . :Le Mans received far,far more coverage in the Sixties than now - even the non specialist press covered the race and it wasn't unusual for magazine like Autocar (not a purely motor sport title , of course) to devote 6 or 7 pages to the bloody test weekend, ;let alone the race . Remember that F1 was far from a mass media sport then and that , until 1966 , F1 was criticised by many for its underpowered cars (1.5 litre formula produced lovely cars like the Lotus 25 but even though they were quick , they weren't spectacular ) . But a screaming 4 litre V12 P4 and a thundering 7litre big block Ford - that captured everyone's attention , believe it .
I'm not saying that it wasn't a big thing in period, I know that Le Mans had a much bigger presence in the public conciousness back then, but it's not as it's generally portrayed - it's a David vs Goliath story where Goliath won - which hardly makes it the stuff of legend in my view.And , contrary to the view expressed in the last post, the Ford v Ferrari battle was HUGE in period . :Le Mans received far,far more coverage in the Sixties than now - even the non specialist press covered the race and it wasn't unusual for magazine like Autocar (not a purely motor sport title , of course) to devote 6 or 7 pages to the bloody test weekend, ;let alone the race . Remember that F1 was far from a mass media sport then and that , until 1966 , F1 was criticised by many for its underpowered cars (1.5 litre formula produced lovely cars like the Lotus 25 but even though they were quick , they weren't spectacular ) . But a screaming 4 litre V12 P4 and a thundering 7litre big block Ford - that captured everyone's attention , believe it .
Similarly the way Ford "won" the 2016 Le Mans 24 Hours. Not the top class/outright honours, and they played the BOP (assisted somewhat by the ACO it would seem) so they had by far the fastest car of the supposedly equal GTE Pro class. Likewise Toyota last year (and I'm hoping not this year, but it'll come as no surprise if it's the same story) - they're hollow victories.
But it wasn't Goliath Ford taking on brave little David Ferrari at all - that is not how it felt in period,. It was more nuanced - you had the dollar heavy , crass Yanks with a road car engine (a lovely urban myth is that the GT40 's windscreen wiper (from a plane )cost more than the engine did ) taking on the sophisticated and vastly experienced Italian masters of the game No rumbling old pushrod V8 - but a 36 valve V12 . Huge race experience and team management skills and you had a team very far from some cottage industry effort.
Eric Mc said:
I still think the "duel" is now overblown. There is no doubt that there was some rivalry - but by the time Ford really were ready to challenge for Le Mans wins, Ferrari were on the wane as they were in serious financial difficulties. Indeed, it was these finance worries that had encouraged Enzo to negotiate with Ford in the first place. In the end, Ferrari was saved by being bought out by FIAT - who more or less told Ferrari that they needed to concentrate on their F1 programme rather than sports car racing.
BBC also ran a documentary a number of years which was supposedly about the Ford - Ferrari war - only this time they were pitting the 250GTO against the Cobra.
The real duel was in the boardrooms of the respective companies, not really on the track.
The greatest sporting narratives are arguably rivalries so is it any wonder stories get twisted, hyped and mythologised and especially when looking back knowing what we do now of Ferrari and its legendary status. BBC also ran a documentary a number of years which was supposedly about the Ford - Ferrari war - only this time they were pitting the 250GTO against the Cobra.
The real duel was in the boardrooms of the respective companies, not really on the track.
What were the contemporary accounts like? I'd imagine then Ferrari was in the ascendancy in terms on public profile but yet to become the legendary marque; Ford was already a mighty company and LM would fit into the political climate of Make America Great optimism of the early 1960s.
All this talk made me finally get round to watching the documentary The 24hr War. Good mix of talking heads and archival footage but it is US-centric and pretty much a Ford info-mercial!
BBC documentary Cobra Ferrari Wars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOcYYkHFwvU I'd imagine it would get a repeat on BBC 4 in November.
A.J. Baime author of Go Like Hell talking about Ford v Ferrari in The Drive after Carroll Shelby died: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykoUocmTe24
It was so very different in so many ways -
- back then , if you really liked cars, you probably belonged to a motor club and had an interest in motor sport. Today we have a vast demographic which cherishes its Civic Type Rs or RS Fords but never goes near a race circuit or has any interest in the wider motor sport community
- hence Le Mans meant a lot in the Sixties ; a legacy too of fairly recent British triumphs there
- but Le Mans wasn't the thing it is now, where so many drive there, wave the Union Flag , drink beer until comatose but never go to another endurance (or any other ) race till next year
- Ferrari might , as ever , have been up and down with money and the usual dramas but they were The Team , in both F1 and Sports cars - even when they weren't winning they were always there - not here today gone tomorrow like Aston and Jag were then
- we didn't have (retch ) brands then so Ferrari wasn't an international merchandise operation with a sideline in shouty road cars. They were known for racing and their road cars were , at least until the Dino arrived , almost impossibly rare. I fell in love with cars and racing in 67 , could identify every road car in a second (often by exhaust note alone ) , missed nothing but it took me over a year to see my first Ferrari, a tired old 330GT .I wrote it in my diary - but not long after I saw a silver 275GTB parked in Leeds and was (and am still ) utterly besotted. They weren't noisy road cars beloved by footballers bu something far more elevated - and incredibly rare
And that is why Ford v Ferrari was so big - especially as , after years of dull product, Ford was making sexy cars like the Cortina GT (and the Lotus version of course) and the Mustang was just achingly cool - much cooler than an E -Type or a DB 6 in many's eyes , including mine (thanks to my having seen a hard charging 350GT Shelby - that V8 noise was so much sexier than an old school Brit six )
- back then , if you really liked cars, you probably belonged to a motor club and had an interest in motor sport. Today we have a vast demographic which cherishes its Civic Type Rs or RS Fords but never goes near a race circuit or has any interest in the wider motor sport community
- hence Le Mans meant a lot in the Sixties ; a legacy too of fairly recent British triumphs there
- but Le Mans wasn't the thing it is now, where so many drive there, wave the Union Flag , drink beer until comatose but never go to another endurance (or any other ) race till next year
- Ferrari might , as ever , have been up and down with money and the usual dramas but they were The Team , in both F1 and Sports cars - even when they weren't winning they were always there - not here today gone tomorrow like Aston and Jag were then
- we didn't have (retch ) brands then so Ferrari wasn't an international merchandise operation with a sideline in shouty road cars. They were known for racing and their road cars were , at least until the Dino arrived , almost impossibly rare. I fell in love with cars and racing in 67 , could identify every road car in a second (often by exhaust note alone ) , missed nothing but it took me over a year to see my first Ferrari, a tired old 330GT .I wrote it in my diary - but not long after I saw a silver 275GTB parked in Leeds and was (and am still ) utterly besotted. They weren't noisy road cars beloved by footballers bu something far more elevated - and incredibly rare
And that is why Ford v Ferrari was so big - especially as , after years of dull product, Ford was making sexy cars like the Cortina GT (and the Lotus version of course) and the Mustang was just achingly cool - much cooler than an E -Type or a DB 6 in many's eyes , including mine (thanks to my having seen a hard charging 350GT Shelby - that V8 noise was so much sexier than an old school Brit six )
Edited by coppice on Thursday 6th June 07:37
I'm sure it will be very well made, but somehow I doubt it will feature the involvement of the British side of the development of the car, just not box office enough for Ford to have to come over to the UK and get 'men in sheds' to sort out the cars for them after LOLA got them started.
entropy said:
Thanks for your input but was the rivalry really hyped up in the 60s?
Depends what you mean; I take your question to be 'did the Ford /Ferrari wars get publicity disproportionate to their real importance ? '. It is true there weren't little groups of people in Thirsk market place arguing the merits of V8s and pushrod V12s . But if you liked cars and motorsport the story was HUGE . No internet of course, no radio or TV coverage of the sport (except Le Mans and some Grands Prix live ) so if your had our interest you read Autosport or Motoring News ,both covering the sport only , and in serious detail. Even if you had more of a road car interest , and read Motor, or Autocar , they had massive coverage of a sort you simply cannot imagine now.
In connection with my book (which I will mention in the book thread just before publication date in July ) I researched the coverage given to the sport back then - you can get the flavour from a '67 Autocar which had a full 3 page report(nearly all text ) on the 'Ring 1000k Sports car race and results down to fastest laps in class .... Anorak stuff .
So no, it wasn't hyped !
mk1coopers said:
I'm sure it will be very well made, but somehow I doubt it will feature the involvement of the British side of the development of the car, just not box office enough for Ford to have to come over to the UK and get 'men in sheds' to sort out the cars for them after LOLA got them started.
In truth, it was the other way round - after a year and a bit with no success, Ford took the project away from Ford Advanced Vehicles and gave it to Shelby and KarKraft, and developed the Mk IV in-house.So are you saying the MK 1 / 2 / 3's weren't very good then ?, the design started with the LOLA MK6, I agree the the MK4 was developed in America from the preceding models, just like the Cobra I consider them hybrid's of the two countries inputs, all I'm saying is that the film may not reflect this (or I may be completely wrong and it will)
mk1coopers said:
So are you saying the MK 1 / 2 / 3's weren't very good then ?, the design started with the LOLA MK6, I agree the the MK4 was developed in America from the preceding models, just like the Cobra I consider them hybrid's of the two countries inputs, all I'm saying is that the film may not reflect this (or I may be completely wrong and it will)
I'm not saying that at all. The Mk II was, after all, just a Mk I beefed up to take the 7-litre engine, and with a bit more time for development FVA might have started to get results with the Mk I, as John Wyer did in 1968 and 1969. However, Ford wanted results *today* and went down the brute force road in search of them.The Mk IV was a separate development and had little in common with the Mk I and Mk II, and the Mk III was a road-going Mk I.
Halmyre said:
I'm not saying that at all. The Mk II was, after all, just a Mk I beefed up to take the 7-litre engine, and with a bit more time for development FVA might have started to get results with the Mk I, as John Wyer did in 1968 and 1969. However, Ford wanted results *today* and went down the brute force road in search of them.
The Mk IV was a separate development and had little in common with the Mk I and Mk II, and the Mk III was a road-going Mk I.
Totally agree, my main comment was (originally and still is) that the film may not recognise the input from all parties in the development of the cars, it may only focus on the US development for this particular version The Mk IV was a separate development and had little in common with the Mk I and Mk II, and the Mk III was a road-going Mk I.
Edited by mk1coopers on Friday 7th June 17:15
mk1coopers said:
Halmyre said:
I'm not saying that at all. The Mk II was, after all, just a Mk I beefed up to take the 7-litre engine, and with a bit more time for development FVA might have started to get results with the Mk I, as John Wyer did in 1968 and 1969. However, Ford wanted results *today* and went down the brute force road in search of them.
The Mk IV was a separate development and had little in common with the Mk I and Mk II, and the Mk III was a road-going Mk I.
Totally agree, my main comment was (originally and still is) that the film may not recognise the input from all parties in the development of the cars, it may only focus on the US development for this particular version The Mk IV was a separate development and had little in common with the Mk I and Mk II, and the Mk III was a road-going Mk I.
Edited by mk1coopers on Friday 7th June 17:15
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