Spitfire the plane that saved the world
Discussion
Regardless of your opinion of the Spitfire, and it's status as "the 'plane that saved the world" (or not), we are lucky to have had it at all, given Reginald Mitchell's age and the history of the world at the time.
He was very firmly "of fighting age" during WW1, and yet he escaped the trenches in France because he was an apprentice at a locomotive works between 1911 and 1917, whereupon he became assistant to Hubert Scott-Paine, owner and designer at Supermarine. Then he was struck twice by cancer, undergoing a colostomy in 1933 and then dying from it in 1937.
From what I've read, he designed the Spitfire while living on borrowed time. While I accept that the aeroplane itself is 'iconic' in the true sense of the word, and RJ Mitchell is a name legendary in the world of aviation (and not just for the Spitfire), I'd personally dispute the claim that it was "the aeroplane that saved the world". It may not even have been the aeroplane that saved Britain's collective skin at the height of the Battle Of Britain. But it certainly played it's part in the organised air defence systems in place back then. Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding probably was the man who won the Battle Of Britain, but again, one talented soloist does not an orchestra make...
...I'm unlikely to see this film any time soon, but watched the film 'First Of The Few' on Monday afternoon. Even in 1941/1942, it was recognised what an important role the Spitfire had played in the war, and there were three more years of fighting still to come. I don't recall a WW2 movie/propaganda piece detailing the life of Sir Sydney Camm and his part in the war effort through the design of the Hurricane, so it's clear that even during the war the Spitfire was becoming the eulogised icon of the two aeroplanes. The Spitfire may have worn the mink stole and posed for photos on the red carpet, but it was the Hurricane that carried the heavy bags.
He was very firmly "of fighting age" during WW1, and yet he escaped the trenches in France because he was an apprentice at a locomotive works between 1911 and 1917, whereupon he became assistant to Hubert Scott-Paine, owner and designer at Supermarine. Then he was struck twice by cancer, undergoing a colostomy in 1933 and then dying from it in 1937.
From what I've read, he designed the Spitfire while living on borrowed time. While I accept that the aeroplane itself is 'iconic' in the true sense of the word, and RJ Mitchell is a name legendary in the world of aviation (and not just for the Spitfire), I'd personally dispute the claim that it was "the aeroplane that saved the world". It may not even have been the aeroplane that saved Britain's collective skin at the height of the Battle Of Britain. But it certainly played it's part in the organised air defence systems in place back then. Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding probably was the man who won the Battle Of Britain, but again, one talented soloist does not an orchestra make...
...I'm unlikely to see this film any time soon, but watched the film 'First Of The Few' on Monday afternoon. Even in 1941/1942, it was recognised what an important role the Spitfire had played in the war, and there were three more years of fighting still to come. I don't recall a WW2 movie/propaganda piece detailing the life of Sir Sydney Camm and his part in the war effort through the design of the Hurricane, so it's clear that even during the war the Spitfire was becoming the eulogised icon of the two aeroplanes. The Spitfire may have worn the mink stole and posed for photos on the red carpet, but it was the Hurricane that carried the heavy bags.
yellowjack said:
Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding probably was the man who won the Battle Of Britain, but again, one talented soloist does not an orchestra make...
^This.(coupled with messers Hilter and Goring equally loosing the Battle of Britain)
Anyway, it's people that win, loose or save situations, not inanimate objects.
As a pure fighter, the Hurricane was already really obsolete by the Battle of Britain. However, because it was used in larger numbers than any other fighter in RAF service at that time, it accounted for substantially more enemy aircraft in that 3 - 4 month period than all other defences combined i.e. all the other fighters (including the Spitfire) and ground based anti-aircraft batteries.
However, once the Battle had petered out, it was obvious that the Hurricane's days as a pure interceptor - especially if it had to cope with later Messerschmitt 109E variants and 109Fs and the Focke Wulf 190, were really over.
The Hurricane continued to be used as a fighter in other areas, such as North Africa, the Middle East and the Far East and the Sea Hurricane was an important asset during the Battle of the Atlantic. But the Spitfire was a more advanced concept and could be developed (and was) into a more and more potent fighter as the war progressed.
Rather than develop the Hurricane in the way Supermarine developed the Spitfire, Hawkers went for new designs (which were evolutions of some of the Hurricane's design principles) such as the Tornado (a failure), the Typhoon (a success as a ground attack aircraft although with serious shortcomings), the Tempest and the Sea Fury.
However, once the Battle had petered out, it was obvious that the Hurricane's days as a pure interceptor - especially if it had to cope with later Messerschmitt 109E variants and 109Fs and the Focke Wulf 190, were really over.
The Hurricane continued to be used as a fighter in other areas, such as North Africa, the Middle East and the Far East and the Sea Hurricane was an important asset during the Battle of the Atlantic. But the Spitfire was a more advanced concept and could be developed (and was) into a more and more potent fighter as the war progressed.
Rather than develop the Hurricane in the way Supermarine developed the Spitfire, Hawkers went for new designs (which were evolutions of some of the Hurricane's design principles) such as the Tornado (a failure), the Typhoon (a success as a ground attack aircraft although with serious shortcomings), the Tempest and the Sea Fury.
"Saved the World" 
Why is it that the British (I'm born in Middlesbrough) feel the need to believe that they 'saved' the World from the Nazis? Utter b
ks! If it wasn't for the Americans, Russians and Commonwealth, the UK would have been overrun and decimated, no less than France, The Netherlands, Belgium et al.
Britain survived only by virtue of it being buffered by the Continent and US intervention. Otherwise it would have fallen. Make no mistake, if there was no channel, Blitzkrieg would have seen the UK under the German boot very quickly - the whole 'the French capitulated quickly' jokes are a tired mockery and Britain would have fared no better as neighbours to Germany at the time. As it was, it needed the USA and the rest of the Commonwealth to provide military aid in huge numbers - that it held out long enough to receive the much-need assistance is the marvel but this was greatly helped by its physical position.
If the US had not got involved to save Britain, ultimately it would have been USA (and Resistance) vs Germany (and later, Japan).
In the conflict, the Spitfire was indeed one of the best aircraft - not clearly the best - but one of the best. It was flown by brave men and women in desperate times and, ultimately, it was these men and women, far more than the aircraft itself who deserve the plaudits for they wrung every last bit of performance out of it against seemingly overwhelming odds. Odds that they would nevertheless have eventually succumbed to had it not been for foreign aid.
Why is it that the British (I'm born in Middlesbrough) feel the need to believe that they 'saved' the World from the Nazis? Utter b
ks! If it wasn't for the Americans, Russians and Commonwealth, the UK would have been overrun and decimated, no less than France, The Netherlands, Belgium et al. Britain survived only by virtue of it being buffered by the Continent and US intervention. Otherwise it would have fallen. Make no mistake, if there was no channel, Blitzkrieg would have seen the UK under the German boot very quickly - the whole 'the French capitulated quickly' jokes are a tired mockery and Britain would have fared no better as neighbours to Germany at the time. As it was, it needed the USA and the rest of the Commonwealth to provide military aid in huge numbers - that it held out long enough to receive the much-need assistance is the marvel but this was greatly helped by its physical position.
If the US had not got involved to save Britain, ultimately it would have been USA (and Resistance) vs Germany (and later, Japan).
In the conflict, the Spitfire was indeed one of the best aircraft - not clearly the best - but one of the best. It was flown by brave men and women in desperate times and, ultimately, it was these men and women, far more than the aircraft itself who deserve the plaudits for they wrung every last bit of performance out of it against seemingly overwhelming odds. Odds that they would nevertheless have eventually succumbed to had it not been for foreign aid.
Coolbanana said:
"Saved the World"
Why is it that the British (I'm born in Middlesbrough) feel the need to believe that they 'saved' the World from the Nazis? Utter bks!
I don't believe we do in general.Why is it that the British (I'm born in Middlesbrough) feel the need to believe that they 'saved' the World from the Nazis? Utter b
ks! It looks like this program wasn't created for UK TV, and the silly title was no doubt dreamed up by some numpty young TV type for extra 'dramatic effect' as opposed to anything factually related.
Coolbanana said:
Britain survived only by virtue of it being buffered by the Continent and US intervention. Otherwise it would have fallen. Make no mistake, if there was no channel, Blitzkrieg would have seen the UK under the German boot very quickly - the whole 'the French capitulated quickly' jokes are a tired mockery and Britain would have fared no better as neighbours to Germany at the time. As it was, it needed the USA and the rest of the Commonwealth to provide military aid in huge numbers - that it held out long enough to receive the much-need assistance is the marvel but this was greatly helped by its physical position.
If the US had not got involved to save Britain, ultimately it would have been USA (and Resistance) vs Germany (and later, Japan).
Yes, our geography saved us, as it did to quote the film, when the last little corporal tried the same thing.....If the US had not got involved to save Britain, ultimately it would have been USA (and Resistance) vs Germany (and later, Japan).
But I thing you need to check your facts as to the US saving us, as I think you'll find that the USA didn't get involved until 12 months AFTER Germany had called off any invasion attempt of the UK, and 6 months after Germany had turned its attention to the east......and then only because Japan made the decision for them.
And had we not held out on our own, there would have been no USA riding to the rescue of Europe, even if Japan had still brought them into the war, as there would have been nowhere to launch any attack on the Third Reich from.
And yes, we were indeed grateful for the people of the Commonwealth coming to the aid of the UK before the septics got dragged kicking and screaming into the fray.
I don't know where this myth that Germany would of invaded us and we would of lost keeps coming from, operation sea lion was pretty much a joke and was almost certainly doomed to failure. check this out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(...
louiechevy said:
I don't know where this myth that Germany would of invaded us and we would of lost keeps coming from, operation sea lion was pretty much a joke and was almost certainly doomed to failure. check this out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(...
Yes, the Wehrmacht was never created, set-up or equipped for an amphibious invasion, that wasn't the concept of Blitzkrieg. The only place they got away with such an action was Norway, and again, geography helped them in that scenario.It was never really in their plan to invade UK either, sure they would have have done so, had they destroyed the RAF, but, even then, there was still the matter of the Royal Navy for them to deal with, and the RN even in 1940 was still, a very serious threat to them, even with no air cover which would have taken a heavy toll on the fleet, it would still have dealt a mortal blown to any German invasion attempt.
Even in the spring of 1940, during the invasion of the low countries and France, Hitler eyes were already turning towards the east.
yellowjack said:
Regardless of your opinion of the Spitfire, and it's status as "the 'plane that saved the world" (or not), we are lucky to have had it at all, given Reginald Mitchell's age and the history of the world at the time.
He was very firmly "of fighting age" during WW1, and yet he escaped the trenches in France because he was an apprentice at a locomotive works between 1911 and 1917, whereupon he became assistant to Hubert Scott-Paine, owner and designer at Supermarine. Then he was struck twice by cancer, undergoing a colostomy in 1933 and then dying from it in 1937.
From what I've read, he designed the Spitfire while living on borrowed time. While I accept that the aeroplane itself is 'iconic' in the true sense of the word, and RJ Mitchell is a name legendary in the world of aviation (and not just for the Spitfire), I'd personally dispute the claim that it was "the aeroplane that saved the world". It may not even have been the aeroplane that saved Britain's collective skin at the height of the Battle Of Britain. But it certainly played it's part in the organised air defence systems in place back then. Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding probably was the man who won the Battle Of Britain, but again, one talented soloist does not an orchestra make...
...I'm unlikely to see this film any time soon, but watched the film 'First Of The Few' on Monday afternoon. Even in 1941/1942, it was recognised what an important role the Spitfire had played in the war, and there were three more years of fighting still to come. I don't recall a WW2 movie/propaganda piece detailing the life of Sir Sydney Camm and his part in the war effort through the design of the Hurricane, so it's clear that even during the war the Spitfire was becoming the eulogised icon of the two aeroplanes. The Spitfire may have worn the mink stole and posed for photos on the red carpet, but it was the Hurricane that carried the heavy bags.
All sensible points. I'd also add the contribution of radar to the mix.He was very firmly "of fighting age" during WW1, and yet he escaped the trenches in France because he was an apprentice at a locomotive works between 1911 and 1917, whereupon he became assistant to Hubert Scott-Paine, owner and designer at Supermarine. Then he was struck twice by cancer, undergoing a colostomy in 1933 and then dying from it in 1937.
From what I've read, he designed the Spitfire while living on borrowed time. While I accept that the aeroplane itself is 'iconic' in the true sense of the word, and RJ Mitchell is a name legendary in the world of aviation (and not just for the Spitfire), I'd personally dispute the claim that it was "the aeroplane that saved the world". It may not even have been the aeroplane that saved Britain's collective skin at the height of the Battle Of Britain. But it certainly played it's part in the organised air defence systems in place back then. Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding probably was the man who won the Battle Of Britain, but again, one talented soloist does not an orchestra make...
...I'm unlikely to see this film any time soon, but watched the film 'First Of The Few' on Monday afternoon. Even in 1941/1942, it was recognised what an important role the Spitfire had played in the war, and there were three more years of fighting still to come. I don't recall a WW2 movie/propaganda piece detailing the life of Sir Sydney Camm and his part in the war effort through the design of the Hurricane, so it's clear that even during the war the Spitfire was becoming the eulogised icon of the two aeroplanes. The Spitfire may have worn the mink stole and posed for photos on the red carpet, but it was the Hurricane that carried the heavy bags.
aeropilot said:
But I thing you need to check your facts as to the US saving us, as I think you'll find that the USA didn't get involved until 12 months AFTER Germany had called off any invasion attempt of the UK, and 6 months after Germany had turned its attention to the east......and then only because Japan made the decision for them.
I think you'll find the US was supporting Britain and her allies before Pearl Harbor.Europa1 said:
aeropilot said:
But I thing you need to check your facts as to the US saving us, as I think you'll find that the USA didn't get involved until 12 months AFTER Germany had called off any invasion attempt of the UK, and 6 months after Germany had turned its attention to the east......and then only because Japan made the decision for them.
I think you'll find the US was supporting Britain and her allies before Pearl Harbor.227bhp said:
aeropilot said:
^This.
(coupled with messers Hilter and Goring equally loosing the Battle of Britain)
Anyway, it's people that win, loose or save situations, not inanimate objects.
Do yourself a favour, keep a copy this handy:(coupled with messers Hilter and Goring equally loosing the Battle of Britain)
Anyway, it's people that win, loose or save situations, not inanimate objects.
king pointless PH thread contribution......... 
Coolbanana said:
"Saved the World"
Why is it that the British (I'm born in Middlesbrough) feel the need to believe that they 'saved' the World from the Nazis? Utter bks! If it wasn't for the Americans, Russians and Commonwealth, the UK would have been overrun and decimated, no less than France, The Netherlands, Belgium et al.
Britain survived only by virtue of it being buffered by the Continent and US intervention. Otherwise it would have fallen. Make no mistake, if there was no channel, Blitzkrieg would have seen the UK under the German boot very quickly - the whole 'the French capitulated quickly' jokes are a tired mockery and Britain would have fared no better as neighbours to Germany at the time. As it was, it needed the USA and the rest of the Commonwealth to provide military aid in huge numbers - that it held out long enough to receive the much-need assistance is the marvel but this was greatly helped by its physical position.
If the US had not got involved to save Britain, ultimately it would have been USA (and Resistance) vs Germany (and later, Japan).
In the conflict, the Spitfire was indeed one of the best aircraft - not clearly the best - but one of the best. It was flown by brave men and women in desperate times and, ultimately, it was these men and women, far more than the aircraft itself who deserve the plaudits for they wrung every last bit of performance out of it against seemingly overwhelming odds. Odds that they would nevertheless have eventually succumbed to had it not been for foreign aid.
For Britain, read “The British Empire”. You can’t separate the 2 in that period of time. Whilst it may seem improbable now, at the outbreak of WW2, the BE was still the pre-eminent world super power (although it’s influence was on the wane). It controlled the worlds shipping and trade – even moreso once Germany began occupying other countries and their merchant fleets came under BE control. Not only was it able to acquire resources from all across the globe, it also had the means to pay for it. The US didn’t just give us arms – they were all expected to be paid for. Why is it that the British (I'm born in Middlesbrough) feel the need to believe that they 'saved' the World from the Nazis? Utter b
ks! If it wasn't for the Americans, Russians and Commonwealth, the UK would have been overrun and decimated, no less than France, The Netherlands, Belgium et al. Britain survived only by virtue of it being buffered by the Continent and US intervention. Otherwise it would have fallen. Make no mistake, if there was no channel, Blitzkrieg would have seen the UK under the German boot very quickly - the whole 'the French capitulated quickly' jokes are a tired mockery and Britain would have fared no better as neighbours to Germany at the time. As it was, it needed the USA and the rest of the Commonwealth to provide military aid in huge numbers - that it held out long enough to receive the much-need assistance is the marvel but this was greatly helped by its physical position.
If the US had not got involved to save Britain, ultimately it would have been USA (and Resistance) vs Germany (and later, Japan).
In the conflict, the Spitfire was indeed one of the best aircraft - not clearly the best - but one of the best. It was flown by brave men and women in desperate times and, ultimately, it was these men and women, far more than the aircraft itself who deserve the plaudits for they wrung every last bit of performance out of it against seemingly overwhelming odds. Odds that they would nevertheless have eventually succumbed to had it not been for foreign aid.
We also provided huge financial and resource support for the Soviet Union, without which they would have fallen during operation Barbarossa. Germany on the other hand could only source resources from the countries they conquered or neutral states within Europe. They could never hope to win an attritional war with the BE and the longer that the war progressed, the greater the disparagy in resources became evident. For example, from 19411 onwards Britain produced more military equipment of all types (small arms, canon, vehicles, tanks, aircraft etc) than Germany, every single year of the war. That’s just Britain; that doesn’t include US military output.
So whilst there was the will for Britain and it’s empire to continue fighting, the end result was inevitable in so much as eventually Germany would run out of resources. For example, in 1944, UK domestic (non-military) oil consumption was 20 times greater than the entire German war effort!
The BoB didn’t save Britain (see Operation Sealion) but it was instrumental in showing that the Germans can be defeated or at least resisted, which gave hope to the rest of the world and confidence to the British people that it was a fight worth continuing with. Had the BoB gone the other way, there may well have been greater calls to sue for peace and to leave Europe (and the Soviet Union) to their fate. I which case any US intervention would have been moot. One could argue that the actual turning point of the war was the victory the BE victory at El Alamein , as it convinced the US that the BE was capable and serious about taking the fight to the Nazis. Had we been kicked out of Africa, the US would have considered us (and the fight in Europe) as a lost cause and not worthy of committing men to. Realistically the only way Germany could have defeated Britain militarily was to blockade the country via U-Boats (which they never had enough resources to achieve) or produce a deployable atomic weapon.
With regards to the Spitfire, would the outcome of the BoB been different if we only had Hurricanes? Given that they were cheaper and quicker to build and more robust/easier to repair, I presume we would have been able to deploy more of them in total and replace losses quicker, as to not have a conclusive effect upon the outcome?
Probably a truer statement to say “RR Merlin – the engine that saved the World” or “P-51, the plane that won the war”
Edited by TEKNOPUG on Thursday 27th September 13:35
Europa1 said:
aeropilot said:
But I thing you need to check your facts as to the US saving us, as I think you'll find that the USA didn't get involved until 12 months AFTER Germany had called off any invasion attempt of the UK, and 6 months after Germany had turned its attention to the east......and then only because Japan made the decision for them.
I think you'll find the US was supporting Britain and her allies before Pearl Harbor.Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff