"They Shall Not Grow Old" Peter Jackson's WWI film

"They Shall Not Grow Old" Peter Jackson's WWI film

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anonymoususer

5,827 posts

49 months

Sunday 14th November 2021
quotequote all
Thread resurrection

Tonight - Sunday 14th November
This landmark film is again showing on BBC 4 tonight at 9pm then repeated later at 12.35

anonymous-user

55 months

Sunday 14th November 2021
quotequote all
Came across this poem today not heard before. Seems apt place for it.

Dulce et Decorum Est
BY WILFRED OWEN

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

TR4man

5,228 posts

175 months

Sunday 14th November 2021
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I’m surprised you haven’t come across this poem before, it is one of the more famous poems from WW1.

I had to study it for A level back in 1978 and at the time could recite it word for word (I couldn’t now).

anonymous-user

55 months

Sunday 14th November 2021
quotequote all
TR4man said:
I’m surprised you haven’t come across this poem before, it is one of the more famous poems from WW1.

I had to study it for A level back in 1978 and at the time could recite it word for word (I couldn’t now).
probably a while ago.

It was bought to my attention as an ex serviceman was talking about depression in a vlog and said this was pertinent.

coppice

8,617 posts

145 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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The delicious irony of Owen's poem is that it runs so counter to the modern sanctification of war dead.

MC Bodge

21,631 posts

176 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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coppice said:
The delicious irony of Owen's poem is that it runs so counter to the modern sanctification of war dead.
It is not quite the same thing.

I doubt that many people see now dying, or being seriously injured/mentally damaged, whilst fighting for the country as sweet or glorious.

My grandfather's brother was killed in a tank battle in WW2. He never met his young son. That seems to me immensely sad and must have been awful for his wife, who was never even able to visit his distant grave. He and millions of other people were violently killed in the prime of their life, or were raped and had their homes destroyed, for a war that had started small, and then escalated into a huge conflict. As had a similar conflict only a few years earlier. Not glorious at all.


Edited by MC Bodge on Monday 15th November 09:24

coppice

8,617 posts

145 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
You may be right , but whenever I hear the sanctimonious tosh about 'laying down lives for their country' I bristle a bit . I'm named after my Uncle John , who was shot down in a Halifax in Picardie, in 1944. When I visited his grave my only thought was what a fking senseless waste it all was. My other uncle flew gliders on D Day and Arnhem , and survived. He refused to take part in any remembrance events , and I think I understood why .

Riley Blue

20,972 posts

227 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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Those who have watched 'They Shall Not Grow Old' may also appreciate this, 'Peter Jackson's Military Treasures' :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmZ9X9Aplk

Evoluzione

10,345 posts

244 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
coppice said:
You may be right , but whenever I hear the sanctimonious tosh about 'laying down lives for their country' I bristle a bit . I'm named after my Uncle John , who was shot down in a Halifax in Picardie, in 1944. When I visited his grave my only thought was what a fking senseless waste it all was. My other uncle flew gliders on D Day and Arnhem , and survived. He refused to take part in any remembrance events , and I think I understood why .
It wasn't a waste though.

anonymoususer

5,827 posts

49 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
Riley Blue said:
Those who have watched 'They Shall Not Grow Old' may also appreciate this, 'Peter Jackson's Military Treasures' :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmZ9X9Aplk
Yes and for those who don't do YouTuibe its beenm shown and will be again on Forces TV

coppice

8,617 posts

145 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
Evoluzione said:
It wasn't a waste though.
It's always a waste . Young men like him - 12.000 miles from home and with many German friends at home- are the collateral damage of older men's love of power.

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
1 million plus died at the Somme. That was a mistake.


coppernorks

1,919 posts

47 months

Monday 15th November 2021
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The Spruce Goose said:
1 million plus died at the Somme. That was a mistake.
How else to remove the Germans from France ?

It was a mistake for the UK and Commonwealth troops to get
needlessly embroiled in the 2nd leg of the Franco-Prussian war
and we would have been be spared a millions deaths and the awful poetry
of Owen, Sassoon, Brooke, Britten.

[ I'm with Capt. Blackadder on that last point ]

FourWheelDrift

Original Poster:

88,542 posts

285 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
The Spruce Goose said:
1 million plus died at the Somme. That was a mistake.
That is actually a mistake, there were around 1 million casualties. 300,000 deaths in total on both sides.

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
coppernorks said:
How else to remove the Germans from France ?
That battle was a cluster f. telling the soldiers no retreat else being shot. Some battalions totally wiped out. They died because of ineptitude of the senior ranks, no more or less.

Fastchas

2,646 posts

122 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
The Spruce Goose said:
Came across this poem today not heard before. Seems apt place for it.

Dulce et Decorum Est
BY WILFRED OWEN

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.—
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,—
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
This was secondary comp standard fare for English lit back in the 80’s. Failed my ‘O’ level on the back of this!

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
The Spruce Goose said:
coppernorks said:
How else to remove the Germans from France ?
That battle was a cluster f. telling the soldiers no retreat else being shot. Some battalions totally wiped out. They died because of ineptitude of the senior ranks, no more or less.
It is very easy to subscribe to the The 'Lions led by donkeys' view as espoused by Blackadder since it is widespread. However more recent revisionist works have sought to challenge that analysis and vindicate the actions and leadership of commanders such as Haig et al. By digging just slightly beyond the surface it is possible to form a very different opinion, or at the very least, to improve one's understanding of the context surrounding the events leading up to and during the four year conflict.

On seeing this film again, I just can't help but wonder what the war generation would've made of our modern 'woke' issues, snowflake millennials and cancel culture for example. I suspect we all know the answer to that...

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
Schmed said:
It is very easy to subscribe to the The 'Lions led by donkeys' view as espoused by Blackadder since it is widespread. However more recent revisionist works have sought to challenge that analysis and vindicate the actions and leadership of commanders such as Haig et al.
The British put a regiment of cavalry on standby when the attack started British military faith was still being placed on cavalry attacks when they were clearly useless. British soldiers were not trained nor prepared for life on the battlefield, the majority were fresh conscripts.

Anyway lets take a witness report.

''“The next morning (July 2nd) we gunners surveyed the dreadful scene in front of us……it became clear that the Germans always had a commanding view of No Man’s Land. (The British) attack had been brutally repulsed. Hundreds of dead were strung out like wreckage washed up to a high water-mark. Quite as many died on the enemy wire as on the ground, like fish caught in the net. They hung there in grotesque postures. Some looked as if they were praying; they had died on their knees and the wire had prevented their fall. Machine gun fire had done its terrible work.”'

2 million shells fried, 30% failed to explode, 1.5 million were shrapnel rounds ineffective against the German concrete bunkers. They didn't neutralise the German artillery as well. The bombs didn't cut through barb wire as well.

So i think it is pretty clear the strategy was flawed, 57k british died on the first day, not sure how recent anaylsis can change these facts. I've seen it mention the ear down strategy, but that is just saying the soldiers lives were disposable and could be used to bolster ineffective military campaigns.









Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 15th November 14:47

MC Bodge

21,631 posts

176 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
They were fighting in a very outdated fashion.

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 15th November 2021
quotequote all
MC Bodge said:
They were fighting in a very outdated fashion.
Yes old military strategies led from the top, who were obviously out of touch wiith the realities of actual situations.

Basically the Somme was won by st load of soldiers dying, Ergo Poem.

PALS was disbanded, that was good.