BBC Top Gear Thread 2021/2022
Discussion
ecsrobin said:
A good episode, trialling looks great fun and good to see a big variety of participants.
Yes, I quite agree. I've been aware of them, and even planned on going to the Lands End Trial at Easter quite a few times, but somehow never managed to get round to it. https://www.vscc.co.uk/page/events
https://www.themotorcyclingclub.org.uk/
Synthetic fuels look interesting, but I need to understand how much energy goes into creating a tank full of this ‘carbon neutral’ fuel.
I suspect it takes a huge amount. Extracting co2 from the atmosphere isn’t yet commercially viable is it?
Energy used to produce a 400 mile tank full of synthetic fuel…. Equals how many miles of charge for an EV?
Great episode.
I suspect it takes a huge amount. Extracting co2 from the atmosphere isn’t yet commercially viable is it?
Energy used to produce a 400 mile tank full of synthetic fuel…. Equals how many miles of charge for an EV?
Great episode.
hairykrishna said:
It's hugely energy intensive and it's never going to be cheap enough, or produced on a large enough scale, to somehow make it a cheaper alternative to electric cars. It's a way that people can continue to drive classics and that's basically the reason Porsche are chucking money at it.
I completely disagree.The entire global economy is dependent on aviation. Imagine a world without being able to fly stuff and people all over the place within a few hours. No more out of season perishable goods, no more city breaks, no more 2 weeks in Phuket etc.
I think Efuels will take off, and achieve economies of scale, because without them aviation and life as we know it is over. The engineering and economic hurdles are no higher than BEV and the end result is far better.on the whole.
The 3.0 CSL is the best M car.
Oh, hang on it's the E30 M3.
No. It's the E60 M5.
Or the 1M.
I appreciate this episode was all about Paddy driving cars, but it wasn't about his objective journalism.
And WRC silhouette cars are just b
ks. If anyone buys a car because a rally car pretends to be the same thing then they are a tt.
Oh, hang on it's the E30 M3.
No. It's the E60 M5.
Or the 1M.
I appreciate this episode was all about Paddy driving cars, but it wasn't about his objective journalism.
And WRC silhouette cars are just b
ks. If anyone buys a car because a rally car pretends to be the same thing then they are a tt.Doofus said:
The 3.0 CSL is the best M car.
Oh, hang on it's the E30 M3.
No. It's the E60 M5.
Or the 1M.
I appreciate this episode was all about Paddy driving cars, but it wasn't about his objective journalism.
And WRC silhouette cars are just bks. If anyone buys a car because a rally car pretends to be the same thing then they are a tt.
They did in the 80'sOh, hang on it's the E30 M3.
No. It's the E60 M5.
Or the 1M.
I appreciate this episode was all about Paddy driving cars, but it wasn't about his objective journalism.
And WRC silhouette cars are just b
ks. If anyone buys a car because a rally car pretends to be the same thing then they are a tt.bucket loads of them.
Johnspex said:
That was pretty good!
I prefer Paddy to Freddie too. He just seems to need a bit of toughening up.
He did sound quite frightened during a part of the trial thing when FF was driving.
By the by, did CH say Porsh the first time and Porshah after?
Given that Freddie has no ‘danger’ button I don’t blame him for being frightened!I prefer Paddy to Freddie too. He just seems to need a bit of toughening up.
He did sound quite frightened during a part of the trial thing when FF was driving.
By the by, did CH say Porsh the first time and Porshah after?
LuS1fer said:
BossHogg said:
The synthetic fuel is very interesting indeed, especially if it can be mass produced in this country to bring the price right down.
Until they add synthetic fuel duty and VAT. ??The clue lay in how they were just repeating Paddy Lowe's sales pitch about how he can take CO2 from the atmosphere and hydrogen from splitting sea water using renewable energy.
This is the pitch that's been falling on deaf ears for a few years now and why the company accounts remain empty.
In short, it's a load of b
ks, sadly. The clue lies in just stopping to think about the sales pitch around the CO2 element for a moment. If you could actually scrub CO2 from the air to make a synthetic fuel then you wouldn't need that synthetic fuel would you as the whole CO2 in the atmosphere issue would have been solved. 
The other slight problem and why no one has cracked how to scrub CO2 from the atmosphere is that there is almost none in it. CO2 is only 400ppm. To actually extract enough CO2 to be commercially viable you have to suck in much of the Earth's lower atmosphere on a daily basis. And apart from that causing greater climate change than a nuclear winter, the fans are going to be constantly clogged by dead pigeons and albatrosses that get sucked in.
To make an efuel (which is just a modern rebranding of the Fischer Tropche process that's been around for over 100 years, last
Commonly used by apartheid SA and before that the Nazis) you get your CO2 from coal as that's rich enough in carbon to be commercial viable during a war or political sanctions where you can get hold of liquid fuels. That allows you to manufacturer some C4-c12 hydrocarbon chains which you can then mix with a huge slug of ethanol.
So in this case motorsport has the money to pay such huge sums for this type of fuel. They can obtain the huge amount of CO2 from heavy industry or from directly cracking coal.
The next problem is the hydrogen. Green hydrogen doesn't yet exist and we won't know about commercial viability for a few years yet. If successful all the future supply out beyond 2040 has already been optioned up by the energy and food industry.
So again, only motorsport will have the money to pay the huge sums to obtain a modest side supply.
And the final depressing clue is that all the while that VW is green washing their tiny tax offset investment into HIF with tales of Porsches running on H and efuel they are turning all Porsche road cars electric because there is zero market. Their investment in HOF is a option trade to secure the carbon credits from importing green hydrogen to the EU and burning it for electricity. It's the only way VW can reach net zero by 2050. They need an enormous number of offset credits.
DonkeyApple said:
So in this case motorsport has the money to pay such huge sums for this type of fuel.
Thanks for the explanation, very insightful.One thing though is your comment about paying huge sums for the synthetic fuel, they quoted a tenner a litre last night. OK, to you and I that's extortionate but there's plenty out there that wouldn't even blink at paying £500 to fill their Lambo or Ferrari so was the tenner a litre price a load of rubbish ?
Wow, trialling looks epic and if that episode doesn't make you want at least a go in a proper vintage car, there is something wrong with you. Wow.
... oh, and for those who doubt Paddy is a car enthusiast, that m car tribute was as good as anything TopGear has done.
... oh, and for those who doubt Paddy is a car enthusiast, that m car tribute was as good as anything TopGear has done.
Edited by biggbn on Monday 4th July 09:14
Smollet said:
Best episode of the series by far. Having used to race an E30 M3 I thoroughly enjoyed the segment on the M series and its history. Let’s hope the next series starts as well.
I was about to turn off when i heard the letter ‘m’Given time constraints it was a really good segment
Bluedot said:
DonkeyApple said:
So in this case motorsport has the money to pay such huge sums for this type of fuel.
Thanks for the explanation, very insightful.One thing though is your comment about paying huge sums for the synthetic fuel, they quoted a tenner a litre last night. OK, to you and I that's extortionate but there's plenty out there that wouldn't even blink at paying £500 to fill their Lambo or Ferrari so was the tenner a litre price a load of rubbish ?
However, when burnt, the fuel still produces NOx and other toxins so as combustion process are further forced out of Western, urban environments your urban Lambo user wouldn't benefit.
Classic car jaunts in the countryside would be plausible but no one would bother though as petrol will remain on sale for decades to come yet and be a fraction of the cost.
Harry Metcalfe is in the midst of exploring synth fuels for classics but he will discover that the extremely hi ethanol content will be an issue and the source of the CO2 is somewhat of a hot potato should he discover the source.
The market for motorsport has the problem that they are looking at it from an eco greenwash solution but this is very heavily reliant on being able to maintain the public delusion that CO2 can be scrubbed from the atmosphere and that green hydrogen exists.
Logically, so long as we keep steadily migrating to EVs for our general usage the amount of fossil fuel used by motorsport, Classic cars and a few other car owners is really an irrelevance.
Most of us will have no issue keeping using petrol for the next 20+ years as it'll take over 30 years to switch the U.K. car fleet to electric and it will be the poorest who are the last to be able to switch and if petrol is not readily available to them the country will grind to halt as there will be no one able to do the vital low paid work that it's wholly reliant upon.
Even the biofuel market is going to have a bit of a reality check over the next year or two as we are forced to question the logic of using land and food stocks to create a bit of fuel for the West when the devoting world is starving. Let alone the fact that biofuel demand financially incentivises deforestation!
The only sane solution is to keep using petrol while ensuring the transition to using electricity goes as smoothly and steadily as possible.
And obviously, if we really wanted to make a difference we'd be focussing on converting the developing nations to electric where cars are the most polluting as opposed to the affluent West which has the cleanest vehicles on the planet.
I suspect that converting Delhi's two stroke fleet to electric would be cheaper and deliver better gains than subsidising the most affluent in the affluent West to treat themselves to an expensive new car.
Ultimately, while TG were a little bit careful with their wording they had a responsibility, in my opinion, to be more overt in pointing out the truth. It was a missed opportunity for some clarity and nipping some greenwashing in the bud. Instead, I suspect they've propagated some mistruths.
DonkeyApple said:
Bluedot said:
DonkeyApple said:
So in this case motorsport has the money to pay such huge sums for this type of fuel.
Thanks for the explanation, very insightful.One thing though is your comment about paying huge sums for the synthetic fuel, they quoted a tenner a litre last night. OK, to you and I that's extortionate but there's plenty out there that wouldn't even blink at paying £500 to fill their Lambo or Ferrari so was the tenner a litre price a load of rubbish ?
However, when burnt, the fuel still produces NOx and other toxins so as combustion process are further forced out of Western, urban environments your urban Lambo user wouldn't benefit.
Classic car jaunts in the countryside would be plausible but no one would bother though as petrol will remain on sale for decades to come yet and be a fraction of the cost.
Harry Metcalfe is in the midst of exploring synth fuels for classics but he will discover that the extremely hi ethanol content will be an issue and the source of the CO2 is somewhat of a hot potato should he discover the source.
The market for motorsport has the problem that they are looking at it from an eco greenwash solution but this is very heavily reliant on being able to maintain the public delusion that CO2 can be scrubbed from the atmosphere and that green hydrogen exists.
Logically, so long as we keep steadily migrating to EVs for our general usage the amount of fossil fuel used by motorsport, Classic cars and a few other car owners is really an irrelevance.
Most of us will have no issue keeping using petrol for the next 20+ years as it'll take over 30 years to switch the U.K. car fleet to electric and it will be the poorest who are the last to be able to switch and if petrol is not readily available to them the country will grind to halt as there will be no one able to do the vital low paid work that it's wholly reliant upon.
Even the biofuel market is going to have a bit of a reality check over the next year or two as we are forced to question the logic of using land and food stocks to create a bit of fuel for the West when the devoting world is starving. Let alone the fact that biofuel demand financially incentivises deforestation!
The only sane solution is to keep using petrol while ensuring the transition to using electricity goes as smoothly and steadily as possible.
And obviously, if we really wanted to make a difference we'd be focussing on converting the developing nations to electric where cars are the most polluting as opposed to the affluent West which has the cleanest vehicles on the planet.
I suspect that converting Delhi's two stroke fleet to electric would be cheaper and deliver better gains than subsidising the most affluent in the affluent West to treat themselves to an expensive new car.
Ultimately, while TG were a little bit careful with their wording they had a responsibility, in my opinion, to be more overt in pointing out the truth. It was a missed opportunity for some clarity and nipping some greenwashing in the bud. Instead, I suspect they've propagated some mistruths.
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