The Game Changers Documentary
Discussion
Halb said:
All athletes take supps.
how much protein is enough? There is debate on this, eat correctly, for you goals, and meat based, plant based there is unlikely to be surplus of calories in either.
People that have an interest in training or some knowledge on the subject know that regardless of diet, all athletes will suppliment.how much protein is enough? There is debate on this, eat correctly, for you goals, and meat based, plant based there is unlikely to be surplus of calories in either.
The debate in here in my view is not plant vs meat, which is better, It should be purely how the GC documentary puts the facts across and it really doesn't portray a balanced argument giving the viewer all the details.
Halb said:
I've not seen the doc, but Patrick a strongman is in it? He was world class when he competed. There are also world class weightlifters who are vegan.
He isn’t even close to world class.There is a description of his diet in that document from Chris Kresser too and it’s about 80% protein powders and tablets for supplements.
His max deadlift is about 500lbs less than someone like Eddie Hall
If you look at the document you can see most of the other athletes featured either fell apart after going vegan ( loads of the NFL guys out with injury, Morgan Mitchel the sprinter is now so slow school girls are beating her so retired), were not actually vegan (like Nate Diaz) or are not as good as they are made out to be, eg that guy who broke the Appalachian trail record by a few hours/ mins. A guy who isn’t even a pro athlete, a dentist, has since beaten it by 5 days! While stuffing his face with pizza and sweets apparently.
Only a couple of them seem to be doing as well as or better on a vegan diet
LimaDelta said:
Well, I managed six days meat-free, and then today the chef put out sushi for lunch. Vegan fail for me.
I know six days is nothing but I have to say I felt no different in terms of health/fitness/energy levels. A lot more flatulent though, and I didn't win any Olympic medals.
Ha - same here although i haven't given up completely yet but i am considering dropping down to vegetarian levels rather than thoroughbred veganI know six days is nothing but I have to say I felt no different in terms of health/fitness/energy levels. A lot more flatulent though, and I didn't win any Olympic medals.
RB Will said:
He isn’t even close to world class.
I would suggest, you are wrong.2013 World record yoke-walk, 550,2 kg over 10 m in Toronto[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian#Acc...
there's a pretty good interview with Patrick on Clarence the irish weightlifters channel, they also go over diet and stuff.
https://youtu.be/8x8_40xJPWg
Halb said:
RB Will said:
He isn’t even close to world class.
I would suggest, you are wrong.2013 World record yoke-walk, 550,2 kg over 10 m in Toronto[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian#Acc...
there's a pretty good interview with Patrick on Clarence the irish weightlifters channel, they also go over diet and stuff.
https://youtu.be/8x8_40xJPWg
In Giants Live/ WSM stuff they tend to have a lower weight and go for distance instead.
Ive not looked but I think Patriks records are a bit specific in nature, that nobody else has attempted, rather than the best ever achieved etc. Even compared to athletes of a similar stature/ weight he is well down. His deadlift record is 627lbs, the record for a guy of his size is over 950lbs! A couple of the big guys have done over 1,100lbs.
Apparently Patrik has never appeared at any of the WSM/ Giants live/ Arnold competitions as his best lifts don't even meet the minimum to qualify.
Saying he is world class is like saying I'm a world class runner, I'm well above average, done a sub19 min 5k but that wouldn't get me anywhere in real competitions where the world class guys are in the sub 13min range
Edited by RB Will on Tuesday 26th November 11:33
RB Will said:
eg that guy who broke the Appalachian trail record by a few hours/ mins. A guy who isn’t even a pro athlete, a dentist, has since beaten it by 5 days! While stuffing his face with pizza and sweets apparently.
Gotta pull you up on that one - Scott Jurek is by almost any definition a legend in the sport of ultra-running. He won Western States, the ultra-running equivalent of the Superbowl seven times in a row (99-05) and the Spartathlon three times in a row (06-08). His 24 hour PB is 165.7 miles, a US record at the time.He has written about how he started experimenting with a plant based diet and found it worked for him, improving recovery times and improving his performance. In the absence of a time machine or human photocopier, we'll of course never know if a meat-based Jurek would have done even better.
In terms of the AT record, it was something he found himself motivated to do long after he'd ceased to be mentally and physically competitive over the more traditional one-day races and distances. Ex-pro would be a better title for him now. Again, without the time machine, we'd never know, but you could argue for Jurek being capable of taking much more off the record in his 90's-00's peak performance days, but equally, such a huge challenge could have set his subsequent performances back lots. It's not a coincidence that these multi day/week records are set by older athletes, regardless of whether they're eating hummus dipped rainbow tofu or pigs ears.
For ultra endurance running see Zach Bitter, and check out his diet.
richthebike said:
Simon Geschke has been (mostly) vegan for about three seasons, so it obviously works for some people at the elite level.
I though GC was pretty good. I don't really care about Diaz / Connor and who was at what weight. The fact is that you can be a decent athlete and be plant based. Will it work for everyone? Probably not.
He hasn't won anything in the last 5 years. I'd argue he was always a pack fill rider anyway. I though GC was pretty good. I don't really care about Diaz / Connor and who was at what weight. The fact is that you can be a decent athlete and be plant based. Will it work for everyone? Probably not.
Smitters said:
RB Will said:
eg that guy who broke the Appalachian trail record by a few hours/ mins. A guy who isn’t even a pro athlete, a dentist, has since beaten it by 5 days! While stuffing his face with pizza and sweets apparently.
Gotta pull you up on that one - Scott Jurek is by almost any definition a legend in the sport of ultra-running. He won Western States, the ultra-running equivalent of the Superbowl seven times in a row (99-05) and the Spartathlon three times in a row (06-08). His 24 hour PB is 165.7 miles, a US record at the time.He has written about how he started experimenting with a plant based diet and found it worked for him, improving recovery times and improving his performance. In the absence of a time machine or human photocopier, we'll of course never know if a meat-based Jurek would have done even better.
In terms of the AT record, it was something he found himself motivated to do long after he'd ceased to be mentally and physically competitive over the more traditional one-day races and distances. Ex-pro would be a better title for him now. Again, without the time machine, we'd never know, but you could argue for Jurek being capable of taking much more off the record in his 90's-00's peak performance days, but equally, such a huge challenge could have set his subsequent performances back lots. It's not a coincidence that these multi day/week records are set by older athletes, regardless of whether they're eating hummus dipped rainbow tofu or pigs ears.
It does show how diets and athletes in general have moved on though.
As I said a non pro took 5 days off his Appalachian trail record, and the guy mentioned above, Zach Bitter is 4 hours quicker over 100 miles, though that is comparing 100 trail miles to 100 miles on track so a bit of a margin should be expected but that is quite a margin, Zach finishing at the time when Scott still had a marathon to go.
Not that I should complain, he would still hand me my backside on a plate
I think these stories of world class sportsmen and women performing well on vegan diets is highly misleading.
It's their job to look after their health. They (or their teams) can spend the time working out their diets; invest in regular blood tests; and bring in food and/or supplements from anywhere in the world. They can employ nutritionists, doctors and sports scientists to make sure they get all the stuff they need. Of course they can make it work.
A vegan diet is primarily a privilege for the wealthy, not a solution for feeding the world.
I think it's a problem if it leads people who don't have access to those kinds of resources believe they can see the same benefits without them.
It's their job to look after their health. They (or their teams) can spend the time working out their diets; invest in regular blood tests; and bring in food and/or supplements from anywhere in the world. They can employ nutritionists, doctors and sports scientists to make sure they get all the stuff they need. Of course they can make it work.
A vegan diet is primarily a privilege for the wealthy, not a solution for feeding the world.
I think it's a problem if it leads people who don't have access to those kinds of resources believe they can see the same benefits without them.
RB Will said:
Id suggest I'm not. The big boys are doing the yoke walk regularly over 700kg at the Arnold classic. The starting weight they use in that competition is about 590kg.
In Giants Live/ WSM stuff they tend to have a lower weight and go for distance instead.
Ive not looked but I think Patriks records are a bit specific in nature, that nobody else has attempted, rather than the best ever achieved etc. Even compared to athletes of a similar stature/ weight he is well down. His deadlift record is 627lbs, the record for a guy of his size is over 950lbs! A couple of the big guys have done over 1,100lbs.
Apparently Patrik has never appeared at any of the WSM/ Giants live/ Arnold competitions as his best lifts don't even meet the minimum to qualify.
Saying he is world class is like saying I'm a world class runner, I'm well above average, done a sub19 min 5k but that wouldn't get me anywhere in real competitions where the world class guys are in the sub 13min range
Well that's where we disagree then. I'd think a world record puts a person in world class, or near it, certainly not, 'not where near.' He is small for a strongman. WSM is one area of strongman, it's a bit like boxing that way. He's a strongman and not a powerlifter, and few can compete so high in both disciplines so I@m not surprised arbitrarily choosing an exercise from powerlifting he isn't the best, he doesn't compete at world (or rather competed) in powerlifting, but it's a normal mistake to make. Comparing him to you is a bit deluded, unless you have a world record or are a national champion?In Giants Live/ WSM stuff they tend to have a lower weight and go for distance instead.
Ive not looked but I think Patriks records are a bit specific in nature, that nobody else has attempted, rather than the best ever achieved etc. Even compared to athletes of a similar stature/ weight he is well down. His deadlift record is 627lbs, the record for a guy of his size is over 950lbs! A couple of the big guys have done over 1,100lbs.
Apparently Patrik has never appeared at any of the WSM/ Giants live/ Arnold competitions as his best lifts don't even meet the minimum to qualify.
Saying he is world class is like saying I'm a world class runner, I'm well above average, done a sub19 min 5k but that wouldn't get me anywhere in real competitions where the world class guys are in the sub 13min range
Surprised this is so many pages in and no one has clarified that TGC doesn't advocate veganism (an ethical position) but a diet. No one is 'vegan for a week' because they eat a plant based diet for a week unless they subscribe to the ethical position, and if you subscribe to the ethics you probably aren't going to be doing it for a week.
Like all of these things TGC presents the facts in a particular kind of way but personally it has made me look into things a bit more and I am shocked at the effect the meat industry is having on the planet. I have reduced my meat intake as a result, which is a good thing on all fronts I expect.
What I am consistently thoughtful of is that many people who are clearly unhealthy in the west think they eat a balanced diet, get enough exercise and have no idea why they are carrying 2 stone more than they should be or are edging ever closer to one lifestyle disease or another. In that respect take most things I hear regarding diet with a pinch of salt.
Like all of these things TGC presents the facts in a particular kind of way but personally it has made me look into things a bit more and I am shocked at the effect the meat industry is having on the planet. I have reduced my meat intake as a result, which is a good thing on all fronts I expect.
What I am consistently thoughtful of is that many people who are clearly unhealthy in the west think they eat a balanced diet, get enough exercise and have no idea why they are carrying 2 stone more than they should be or are edging ever closer to one lifestyle disease or another. In that respect take most things I hear regarding diet with a pinch of salt.
LordGrover said:
I've read/listened to a lot of Chris Kresser - got a lot of time for him. Very knowledgeable.
But, his delivery is painful and he comes across as very geeky/nerdy.
JUst listened to it, very god. I actually like Kesser's delivery, but then after listening to Snowden, he was a laser after a snowplough.But, his delivery is painful and he comes across as very geeky/nerdy.
Halb said:
Well that's where we disagree then. I'd think a world record puts a person in world class, or near it, certainly not, 'not where near.' He is small for a strongman. WSM is one area of strongman, it's a bit like boxing that way. He's a strongman and not a powerlifter, and few can compete so high in both disciplines so I@m not surprised arbitrarily choosing an exercise from powerlifting he isn't the best, he doesn't compete at world (or rather competed) in powerlifting, but it's a normal mistake to make. Comparing him to you is a bit deluded, unless you have a world record or are a national champion?
I wasn’t really comparing him to me more the situation that I can’t compete with the best in the world so I am not world class, Patrik it seems can’t compete with the best in the world so is not world class either. Are there any events where his feats of strength are comparable to the best in the world?
You chose the yoke carry as his world record event, not powerlifting, and I showed you he is well off the mark, same with deadlift even in his own weight/ size class. Picked another event at random from his wiki page that he is claiming a record for, log lift and he is off the mark at 185kg with the big guys doing 210-230kg it seems.
I can’t be bothered to check all his achievements are there any he is/ was legit best at?
It seems he has never been an (individual) national champion in anything but bodybuilding let alone on the world stage.
If he was world class why hasn’t he been in any of the world class events?
As you say it depends how you define world class and if you pick your category correctly you can make yourself look better.
My father in law is the current world record holder in one or two categories and has previously been Euro and world champion in his chosen event. He has these achievements as a veteran athlete though so much less competition. At the start of his career he used to run with people like Seb Coe etc but they kicked his arse then so he never “made it” as he wasn’t world class outright but has been able to get a world record by keeping it up as a hobby where his superiors like Coe moved on to other things.
RB Will said:
I wasn’t really comparing him to me more the situation that I can’t compete with the best in the world so I am not world class, Patrik it seems can’t compete with the best in the world so is not world class either.
Are there any events where his feats of strength are comparable to the best in the world?
You chose the yoke carry as his world record event, not powerlifting, and I showed you he is well off the mark, same with deadlift even in his own weight/ size class. Picked another event at random from his wiki page that he is claiming a record for, log lift and he is off the mark at 185kg with the big guys doing 210-230kg it seems.
I can’t be bothered to check all his achievements are there any he is/ was legit best at?
It seems he has never been an (individual) national champion in anything but bodybuilding let alone on the world stage.
If he was world class why hasn’t he been in any of the world class events?
As you say it depends how you define world class and if you pick your category correctly you can make yourself look better.
My father in law is the current world record holder in one or two categories and has previously been Euro and world champion in his chosen event. He has these achievements as a veteran athlete though so much less competition. At the start of his career he used to run with people like Seb Coe etc but they kicked his arse then so he never “made it” as he wasn’t world class outright but has been able to get a world record by keeping it up as a hobby where his superiors like Coe moved on to other things.
Well I know you can't compete in world class events, but Patrik did before he retired post injury, after taking several world records.Are there any events where his feats of strength are comparable to the best in the world?
You chose the yoke carry as his world record event, not powerlifting, and I showed you he is well off the mark, same with deadlift even in his own weight/ size class. Picked another event at random from his wiki page that he is claiming a record for, log lift and he is off the mark at 185kg with the big guys doing 210-230kg it seems.
I can’t be bothered to check all his achievements are there any he is/ was legit best at?
It seems he has never been an (individual) national champion in anything but bodybuilding let alone on the world stage.
If he was world class why hasn’t he been in any of the world class events?
As you say it depends how you define world class and if you pick your category correctly you can make yourself look better.
My father in law is the current world record holder in one or two categories and has previously been Euro and world champion in his chosen event. He has these achievements as a veteran athlete though so much less competition. At the start of his career he used to run with people like Seb Coe etc but they kicked his arse then so he never “made it” as he wasn’t world class outright but has been able to get a world record by keeping it up as a hobby where his superiors like Coe moved on to other things.
http://www.ironmind.com/news/Strongman-Champions-L...
Patrik competed in the Strongman Champion's league, the largest organisation based in Europe. So while you are obviously no where near, Patrik was in the mix in his prime years up to 2015/16.
Yes, just look at the years he competed in the Strongman Champion's league. I've already pointed out one world record of the yoke, which was broken four years later at the AhNOld strongman classic.
I didn't choose the yoke, that was one of the records he broke, because he's a strongman, not a powerlifter. I don't know if you don't know the difference but they are different sports.
You being 'can't be bothered' is pretty obvious from your lack of awareness in this discipline. In his prime Patrik was regularly ranked top three in his nation which was a qualifier for the top three main strongman federations.
He's been in any world class events. The ones in SCL.
I never said 'define', that's you attempting to use twisted logic to deny his achievements. These weren't world records in backyard federations. And you can add as many family members as you like, Patrik was de facto world class by his achievements and the federation he competed in alongside his rivals.
Halb said:
Well I know you can't compete in world class events, but Patrik did before he retired post injury, after taking several world records.
http://www.ironmind.com/news/Strongman-Champions-L...
Patrik competed in the Strongman Champion's league, the largest organisation based in Europe. So while you are obviously no where near, Patrik was in the mix in his prime years up to 2015/16.
Yes, just look at the years he competed in the Strongman Champion's league. I've already pointed out one world record of the yoke, which was broken four years later at the AhNOld strongman classic.
I didn't choose the yoke, that was one of the records he broke, because he's a strongman, not a powerlifter. I don't know if you don't know the difference but they are different sports.
You being 'can't be bothered' is pretty obvious from your lack of awareness in this discipline. In his prime Patrik was regularly ranked top three in his nation which was a qualifier for the top three main strongman federations.
He's been in any world class events. The ones in SCL.
I never said 'define', that's you attempting to use twisted logic to deny his achievements. These weren't world records in backyard federations. And you can add as many family members as you like, Patrik was de facto world class by his achievements and the federation he competed in alongside his rivals.
Ok I'll accept he was in one of the big leagues but without analysing every event he took part in did he do anything special? http://www.ironmind.com/news/Strongman-Champions-L...
Patrik competed in the Strongman Champion's league, the largest organisation based in Europe. So while you are obviously no where near, Patrik was in the mix in his prime years up to 2015/16.
Yes, just look at the years he competed in the Strongman Champion's league. I've already pointed out one world record of the yoke, which was broken four years later at the AhNOld strongman classic.
I didn't choose the yoke, that was one of the records he broke, because he's a strongman, not a powerlifter. I don't know if you don't know the difference but they are different sports.
You being 'can't be bothered' is pretty obvious from your lack of awareness in this discipline. In his prime Patrik was regularly ranked top three in his nation which was a qualifier for the top three main strongman federations.
He's been in any world class events. The ones in SCL.
I never said 'define', that's you attempting to use twisted logic to deny his achievements. These weren't world records in backyard federations. And you can add as many family members as you like, Patrik was de facto world class by his achievements and the federation he competed in alongside his rivals.
Had a look at the results tables for the Strongman Champions league. As far as I can see he was only in it a few years and in those years never finished within the top 50%, never above 30th place and with a max points haul range of I think it was 6 or 8 down to about 2. The guys winning generally have 150-300 points.
So yes technically he is competing with the best in the world by being in the same competition but he isn't really competing with them if you see what I mean.
Since I know you love me using myself as an example. I've competed in the British championship in my chosen sport but never troubled the top guys. I wouldn't call myself National standard just because I took part in the same competition.
I have friends from my sport who similar to Patrik have been successful at National level with podiums more often than not but when they have gone on to European level have dropped back to 30th-50th well off the leaders. So I wouldn't call them world class either even though they have been competing directly with the best in Europe and the world.
Surely someone capable of multiple world records would have placed higher? Are his world records ones that other people have attempted? Are they really specific?
Just had a look to answer my own questions there and it seems the answer is that his yoke record (not bothered checking others) was done outside of competition and to different parameters than you would do in competition so nobody else has bothered to try and break it. He even admits himself that any of the top guys would smash his records if they tried. Brian Shaw has said he doesn't think there would be any problem breaking them. I know saying and actually doing are different though.
Patrik himself disagrees with you that his record was broken. He says it still stands as nobody has done the exact same setup of event, weight and distance etc. Guys have gone way heavier for less distance or further with similar weight.
Funny that you say he isn't a powerlifter (I know he competed in strongman not powerlifting) but it seems that may be one of his strengths. Brian Shaw has just called him out to compete with Brian in any event he likes and Patrik chose the squat, which is a powerlifting event?
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