The Game Changers Documentary
Discussion
Halb said:
RacerMike said:
None of which provide natural B12 in the quantities needed. If they did....we wouldn't need to eat meat or substitute with supplements.
it would depends on the quantities eaten. 3gm of Chlorella (which I used to drop in my shakes, I'm not plant based it was for other reasons) covers daily need
Edited by Halb on Tuesday 10th December 15:22
It's becoming more evident to me that we evolved eating primarily meat, and that plant matter was used to sustain us in times of animal scarcity.
Animals provide us with a full spectrum of vitamins, minerals and energy; assuming the whole animal is consumed. Offal such as liver, kidney, heart, brain, and bones is all that is required, in the correct bio-available format requiring no processing. Consuming solely muscle meat may not be enough for maximal health.
There are/were regions where hunting fresh game was not sufficient, so some of our ancestors became more adept/able to consume more plants than meat - but there is no evidence of any 100% plant based humans (until we get to the late 19th/ early 20th century when it became 'a thing').
Animals provide us with a full spectrum of vitamins, minerals and energy; assuming the whole animal is consumed. Offal such as liver, kidney, heart, brain, and bones is all that is required, in the correct bio-available format requiring no processing. Consuming solely muscle meat may not be enough for maximal health.
There are/were regions where hunting fresh game was not sufficient, so some of our ancestors became more adept/able to consume more plants than meat - but there is no evidence of any 100% plant based humans (until we get to the late 19th/ early 20th century when it became 'a thing').
LordGrover said:
It's becoming more evident to me that we evolved eating primarily meat, and that plant matter was used to sustain us in times of animal scarcity.
Animals provide us with a full spectrum of vitamins, minerals and energy; assuming the whole animal is consumed. Offal such as liver, kidney, heart, brain, and bones is all that is required, in the correct bio-available format requiring no processing. Consuming solely muscle meat may not be enough for maximal health.
There are/were regions where hunting fresh game was not sufficient, so some of our ancestors became more adept/able to consume more plants than meat - but there is no evidence of any 100% plant based humans (until we get to the late 19th/ early 20th century when it became 'a thing').
ExactlyAnimals provide us with a full spectrum of vitamins, minerals and energy; assuming the whole animal is consumed. Offal such as liver, kidney, heart, brain, and bones is all that is required, in the correct bio-available format requiring no processing. Consuming solely muscle meat may not be enough for maximal health.
There are/were regions where hunting fresh game was not sufficient, so some of our ancestors became more adept/able to consume more plants than meat - but there is no evidence of any 100% plant based humans (until we get to the late 19th/ early 20th century when it became 'a thing').
Halb said:
RacerMike said:
When we were evolving we had B12 extracts did we?
don't think soalso, don't the 'evolving' thing stopped at an arbitrarily appointed time.
RacerMike said:
Evolution is potentially still on going, but large adaptions such as changes to diet and internal organ structure takes hundreds of thousands of years. Humans only migrated from Africa around 50,000-70,0000 years ago, and as already stated, vegetarian diets are something that has only occurred in relatively recent history. There simply hasn't been enough time to evolve away from a reliance on meat......B12 being a prime example!
That's not true. Lactose tolerance was adapted to much more quickly than that in regions which domesticated cattle.It is peculiar that when it comes to diet adapting is a bad thing. How long have people been using computers or living in houses? Not very long, should we just not experiment and adapt at all?
Many people do not rely on meat.
We are a species that learns and adapts, we are tool makers, anyone who is against people thriving without meat and taking B12 supplements (which we used our evolved intelligence to produce) needs to get their heads checked. Taking a B12 supplement is no different from living in a cold country and having gas central heating and synthetic clothing to keep you warm - or any number of other tools we employ to sustain us.
I mean, this forum is mostly full of Brits who live in an area of the world which means in winter months they suffer from a vitamin D deficiency. I don't see out cries about how we haven't evolved to live above the 37th parallel north...
gregs656 said:
RacerMike said:
Evolution is potentially still on going, but large adaptions such as changes to diet and internal organ structure takes hundreds of thousands of years. Humans only migrated from Africa around 50,000-70,0000 years ago, and as already stated, vegetarian diets are something that has only occurred in relatively recent history. There simply hasn't been enough time to evolve away from a reliance on meat......B12 being a prime example!
That's not true. Lactose tolerance was adapted to much more quickly than that in regions which domesticated cattle.It is peculiar that when it comes to diet adapting is a bad thing. How long have people been using computers or living in houses? Not very long, should we just not experiment and adapt at all?
Many people do not rely on meat.
We are a species that learns and adapts, we are tool makers, anyone who is against people thriving without meat and taking B12 supplements (which we used our evolved intelligence to produce) needs to get their heads checked. Taking a B12 supplement is no different from living in a cold country and having gas central heating and synthetic clothing to keep you warm - or any number of other tools we employ to sustain us.
I mean, this forum is mostly full of Brits who live in an area of the world which means in winter months they suffer from a vitamin D deficiency. I don't see out cries about how we haven't evolved to live above the 37th parallel north...
RacerMike said:
Evolution is potentially still on going, but large adaptions such as changes to diet and internal organ structure takes hundreds of thousands of years. Humans only migrated from Africa around 50,000-70,0000 years ago, and as already stated, vegetarian diets are something that has only occurred in relatively recent history. There simply hasn't been enough time to evolve away from a reliance on meat......B12 being a prime example!
I looked back to see why you mentioned evolution, and I see I said 'ancient humans.' My only original point was that meat wasn't the only source, I didn't imply that humans went through large scale evolutionary movements by not eating meat, just that multiple sources exist for that particular vit, I am not disagreeing with your statement above.Halb said:
RacerMike said:
Evolution is potentially still on going, but large adaptions such as changes to diet and internal organ structure takes hundreds of thousands of years. Humans only migrated from Africa around 50,000-70,0000 years ago, and as already stated, vegetarian diets are something that has only occurred in relatively recent history. There simply hasn't been enough time to evolve away from a reliance on meat......B12 being a prime example!
I looked back to see why you mentioned evolution, and I see I said 'ancient humans.' My only original point was that meat wasn't the only source, I didn't imply that humans went through large scale evolutionary movements by not eating meat, just that multiple sources exist for that particular vit, I am not disagreeing with your statement above.RacerMike said:
None of what you’ve described is genetic evolution....
Lactose tolerance is.But in any case, it doesn't have to be genetic evolution does it - that was the supplementary point - we thrive in all kinds of environments and states we are not genetically evolved to thrive in by using our genetically evolved intelligence.
I am not vegan but recently vegetarian. I watched the Game Changers documentary and it piqued my interest to investigate further insofar as the debunks and supported science that may go along with it. However, on that trail I came across the documentary "Dominion" on YouTube and after watching that I have suitably sworn off meat for good. The animal consumption machine today which sees billions of animals raised for meat, obscene levels of waste that never make it to slaughter, depraved levels of cruelty, to me, is just not acceptable. Despite chicken being delicious, I realise it makes little difference to me if my protein come in the form of meat or legumes. I appreciate that dairy and egg is half of the problem to which I still subscribe, but once I have settled in a vegetarian diet, I plan to begin the transition toward vegan, if not fully, maybe only consuming sustainable backyard eggs and giving up all dairy.
I know it is bad to consume junk food all day, but would choose to do so because it is delicious. If the Game Changers proves that meat is unhealthy, I know I would still consume it because it is delicious. However, I was not prepared for how much I can empathise with the ethical reasons for not eating meat. I love animals more than I love eating animals.
I know it is bad to consume junk food all day, but would choose to do so because it is delicious. If the Game Changers proves that meat is unhealthy, I know I would still consume it because it is delicious. However, I was not prepared for how much I can empathise with the ethical reasons for not eating meat. I love animals more than I love eating animals.
gregs656 said:
RacerMike said:
None of what you’ve described is genetic evolution....
Lactose tolerance is.But in any case, it doesn't have to be genetic evolution does it - that was the supplementary point - we thrive in all kinds of environments and states we are not genetically evolved to thrive in by using our genetically evolved intelligence.
As I’ve said already...I have absolutely nothing wrong with vegetarianism or veganism, and I 100% agree that as a species we need to eat less meat. I strong disagree with this mixing of science with opinion though as it devalues the clarity of science.
To quote:
“ In biology, evolution is the change in the characteristics of a species over several generations and relies on the process of natural selection”
There is no intelligent design or conscious decision making. The reason you have ears is not because a human decided he wanted to hear things 3,000 years ago. It was an evolutionary advantage to have them so animals that didn’t have ears were more likely to be killed and removed from the gene pool.
I implore that more people spend time understanding science. The TV cannot teach us everything we need to know, and leaves people to say things without being tested critically.
coffeebreath said:
I am not vegan but recently vegetarian. I watched the Game Changers documentary and it piqued my interest to investigate further insofar as the debunks and supported science that may go along with it. However, on that trail I came across the documentary "Dominion" on YouTube and after watching that I have suitably sworn off meat for good. The animal consumption machine today which sees billions of animals raised for meat, obscene levels of waste that never make it to slaughter, depraved levels of cruelty, to me, is just not acceptable. Despite chicken being delicious, I realise it makes little difference to me if my protein come in the form of meat or legumes. I appreciate that dairy and egg is half of the problem to which I still subscribe, but once I have settled in a vegetarian diet, I plan to begin the transition toward vegan, if not fully, maybe only consuming sustainable backyard eggs and giving up all dairy.
I know it is bad to consume junk food all day, but would choose to do so because it is delicious. If the Game Changers proves that meat is unhealthy, I know I would still consume it because it is delicious. However, I was not prepared for how much I can empathise with the ethical reasons for not eating meat. I love animals more than I love eating animals.
Hope you apply the same diligence to how your vegan approved food is farmed, it might come as quite a shock. A far better practice would be to look at the farming methods, whether it be for meat or plant produce.I know it is bad to consume junk food all day, but would choose to do so because it is delicious. If the Game Changers proves that meat is unhealthy, I know I would still consume it because it is delicious. However, I was not prepared for how much I can empathise with the ethical reasons for not eating meat. I love animals more than I love eating animals.
Push for ethically farming such as mentioned: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-507224...
RacerMike said:
If we’re talking about whether our bodies evolved genetically to eat meat then yes it does. You can choose not to, but that is not evolution in the biological sense. You can’t suggest that if we now choose not to eat meat that it’s evolution. It’s evolution of an idea, but not biological. You can’t confuse the ideas here because that’s exactly what the documentary writers are doing to make people believe their half truths.
As I’ve said already...I have absolutely nothing wrong with vegetarianism or veganism, and I 100% agree that as a species we need to eat less meat. I strong disagree with this mixing of science with opinion though as it devalues the clarity of science.
I think you are completely missing my point, which is perhaps my fault.As I’ve said already...I have absolutely nothing wrong with vegetarianism or veganism, and I 100% agree that as a species we need to eat less meat. I strong disagree with this mixing of science with opinion though as it devalues the clarity of science.
What I am stating is, many aspects of how we live we have not biologically evolved into - we have instead adapted the world to fit out biology.
In the case of not eating meat, we have a pretty good handle on it now, we understand the potential for vitamin deficiencies and have overcome it etc etc
What I find interesting is when people like you come at a topic like diet saying 'we didn't evolve specifically to not eat meat' but you don't apply to same logic to the myriad of other aspects of our life we also didn't evolve specifically to do.
There is no mixing of science and opinion from me, we have evolved the tools to thrive in all kinds of different environments with all kinds of diets.
We evolved eating meat, sure, we also evolved as nomads living in temporary shelters dieing in our 30s from our teeth.
gregs656 said:
I think you are completely missing my point, which is perhaps my fault.
What I am stating is, many aspects of how we live we have not biologically evolved into - we have instead adapted the world to fit out biology.
In the case of not eating meat, we have a pretty good handle on it now, we understand the potential for vitamin deficiencies and have overcome it etc etc
What I find interesting is when people like you come at a topic like diet saying 'we didn't evolve specifically to not eat meat' but you don't apply to same logic to the myriad of other aspects of our life we also didn't evolve specifically to do.
There is no mixing of science and opinion from me, we have evolved the tools to thrive in all kinds of different environments with all kinds of diets.
We evolved eating meat, sure, we also evolved as nomads living in temporary shelters dieing in our 30s from our teeth.
People like me? As in people who are trying to make the point that the statement 'we didn't evolve to eat meat' is categorically wrong.What I am stating is, many aspects of how we live we have not biologically evolved into - we have instead adapted the world to fit out biology.
In the case of not eating meat, we have a pretty good handle on it now, we understand the potential for vitamin deficiencies and have overcome it etc etc
What I find interesting is when people like you come at a topic like diet saying 'we didn't evolve specifically to not eat meat' but you don't apply to same logic to the myriad of other aspects of our life we also didn't evolve specifically to do.
There is no mixing of science and opinion from me, we have evolved the tools to thrive in all kinds of different environments with all kinds of diets.
We evolved eating meat, sure, we also evolved as nomads living in temporary shelters dieing in our 30s from our teeth.
As I have said from my first statement, evolving to your environment (a term that uses the none literal but commonised use of the word) is not the same as biological genetic evolution.
To simplify my statements:
- Do we have intestines that support the digestion of both meat and plant matter - YES
- Do we require certain nutrients from meat that are impossible to get in sufficient quantities from just eating plants - YES
- Is the above due to biological evolution - YES
- Is it possible to live on a plant based diet in the modern world - YES
- Is this because the human body has evolved biologically to now synthesis and absorb vitamin B12 - NO
- Is it possible to synthesise B12 artificially in a lab - YES
- Will you die if you don't eat meat in the modern world - NO
Hopefully that is a little clearer. Social evolution and intellingence are not the same processes as Biological Evolution. The only thing that would drive a biological evolution away from our ability to eat meat is if some external factor that meant meat eating became a disadvantage to survival or mating. For example....if eating meat suddenly made everyone infertile, the ability to reproduce would favour people who don't eat meat. Thus genes that favour the digestion of plant matter only would win.
mikiec said:
Hope you apply the same diligence to how your vegan approved food is farmed, it might come as quite a shock. A far better practice would be to look at the farming methods, whether it be for meat or plant produce.
Push for ethically farming such as mentioned: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-507224...
I'm not vegan yet, I'm just vegetarian. Maybe I wasn't clear also but regardless of the farming methods, my problem is I like animals and don't want to contribute to their suffering so directly. I can quite easily get through life without needing to eat them. Push for ethically farming such as mentioned: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-507224...
Additionally, the video you posted is a grass-fed utopia farm which is not the common practice in the USA and nor anywhere else in the world. That farmer understands that his livestock need to express their natural tendencies and is obviously aware of his moral obligation to minimise their suffering in their short-lived lives. I have already purchased meat from similar high end organic/grass-fed/free range farms in the UK at huge cost to myself. It really only relieved about 50% of the guilt.
Try watching the first 10 minutes of Dominion and get back to me before discussing farming methods any further https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko
Richyboy said:
It was a beautiful thing to watch James debate rogan and his guy.
I've just finished listening to the Paul Saladino and Brian Sanders dissection of Wilks' bullying of Kresser. It really doesn't make good listening for Wilks, who they asked several times to come in and discuss it. It's all done in a polite way but it shows how Wilks misled Rogan and Kresser with his tactics, and shines the light on the fact that Wilks repeatedly tried to blindside Kresser, who had no preparation because he didn't know what was going to be thrown at him, but mostly that a lot of what Wilks was saying was just wrong.Has Rogan actually listened back to the podcast he made before he declared Wilks the winner? I can understand him being swayed in the studio during recording but I doubt he'd come to the same conclusion again out of that environment on that day.
Edited by DaveGrohl on Friday 13th December 16:58
coffeebreath said:
'm not vegan yet, I'm just vegetarian. Maybe I wasn't clear also but regardless of the farming methods, my problem is I like animals and don't want to contribute to their suffering so directly. I can quite easily get through life without needing to eat them.
Additionally, the video you posted is a grass-fed utopia farm which is not the common practice in the USA and nor anywhere else in the world. That farmer understands that his livestock need to express their natural tendencies and is obviously aware of his moral obligation to minimise their suffering in their short-lived lives. I have already purchased meat from similar high end organic/grass-fed/free range farms in the UK at huge cost to myself. It really only relieved about 50% of the guilt.
Try watching the first 10 minutes of Dominion and get back to me before discussing farming methods any further https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko
But animals are going to die in the production of your food:Additionally, the video you posted is a grass-fed utopia farm which is not the common practice in the USA and nor anywhere else in the world. That farmer understands that his livestock need to express their natural tendencies and is obviously aware of his moral obligation to minimise their suffering in their short-lived lives. I have already purchased meat from similar high end organic/grass-fed/free range farms in the UK at huge cost to myself. It really only relieved about 50% of the guilt.
Try watching the first 10 minutes of Dominion and get back to me before discussing farming methods any further https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko
https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/songbird...
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/weekend-australia...
In New Zealand, most meat is raised closer to the ‘utopia’ then anything displayed in a vegan propaganda doc. If you’re truly concerned about animal welfare you need to be concerned about farming practice , whether meat or crops. But it is more woke to be vegan
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