The Game Changers Documentary
Discussion
jontykint said:
This is sort of the track I am on now, Local meat raised, butchered and sold locally is on the menu at our house.
Small local farms dont have the welfare issues found in the mass producers.
Its sustainable, and they can only raise and sell what they are able to, puts the price up a bit yes, but this also helps lower the amount of meat we eat.
Probably exactly the same as our ancestors lived.
Luckily its all fields in Cumbria so there are plenty of meaty choices!
This all day long, mass produced cereal crops have significant environmental issues as well, plus kill a lot of wildlife as well. Choosing sustainable, environment conscious farming whether meat or crops is far better than a meat vs plant viewpoint.Small local farms dont have the welfare issues found in the mass producers.
Its sustainable, and they can only raise and sell what they are able to, puts the price up a bit yes, but this also helps lower the amount of meat we eat.
Probably exactly the same as our ancestors lived.
Luckily its all fields in Cumbria so there are plenty of meaty choices!
El stovey said:
LimaDelta said:
Just curious, have you seen it Durbster? The B12 thing is a common argument against and well debunked in the show.
The b12 thing was debunked years ago. I haven't watched the documentary so I'm curious to see how they addressed this. I work for a company that handles blood test data and we have a lot of data on how diet affects people. I'm not involved in the research side but I'm sure our data supports the position that vegans are low in Vit B12 (unless they supplement).
Also, as well as GPs and biologists, our company also happens to employ an enormously disproportionate number of militant vegans so this specific topic is something I know far more about than I would like to.
eybic said:
Could you not do the same for a non Vegan child too? There are plenty of children that are malnourished from all backgrounds and diets.
I am very much a meat and potato man as far as diet goes, I watched this doc and am seriously considering altering my diet, the results shown (in my mind) can't be argued with such as the massive drop in Cholesterol and clearer Plasma. Also 2500 cups of water to produce 1 burger, absolutely ridiculous.
A lot of it made sense to me, I laughed at the power lifter being asked how he is as strong as an Ox without eating meat, "Ox's don't eat meat" was his response. Protein in meat comes from the food that the animal eats so why use a "middle man" when you can take it from source?
But the results are argued, read the biolayne post for how accurate the ‘science’ is in GC. Try eating grass, like an Ox and let me know how that goes...I am very much a meat and potato man as far as diet goes, I watched this doc and am seriously considering altering my diet, the results shown (in my mind) can't be argued with such as the massive drop in Cholesterol and clearer Plasma. Also 2500 cups of water to produce 1 burger, absolutely ridiculous.
A lot of it made sense to me, I laughed at the power lifter being asked how he is as strong as an Ox without eating meat, "Ox's don't eat meat" was his response. Protein in meat comes from the food that the animal eats so why use a "middle man" when you can take it from source?
Edited by eybic on Monday 18th November 09:05
Edited by eybic on Monday 18th November 09:53
GC is a slick production on Netflix, don’t mistake it for anything resembling a balanced scientific view.
Plus that water figure accounts for rainfall as well, beef uses less water then almonds and numerous other vegan approved food.
Steamer said:
When you say 'Feels good'.. is that all the time? As in - can you quantify it compared to how you felt previously?
I just wondered if there was a noticable difference - if so what are the differences?.. more energy in the morning / performing better in sporting hobbies maybe.. better movements in the toilet?
When I stopped smoking (probably 10 years ago or more) There were no major differences, apart from my hands not smelling after a smoke break, or maybe I became slightly more aware of the smell of smoke that lingered on those around me that were still smoking.
The only way I did 'feel better / good' was that my worry / self loathing of being addicted to something damaging and expensive had gone. The tricky bit was breaking the associations with smoking and shared moments with friends (at the top of a ski run, after a trackday, down the pub with mates, working on a car in the garage)
Also when I have a bacon, egg and sausage sandwich.. in really nice bread, with tomato sauce.. possibly browning off the bread in the frying pan for even more flavor - its bloody amazing!!.. people come from other parts of the house to join in the experience, animals gather around my feet!! (this is only an occasional treat) So I'd need vegitarianism / veganism to make me feel that good to even consider turning my back on bacon / sausage etc for ever. I have non of the little niggles that came with smoking about the food I eat - hopefully that makes sense.
The two biggest noticeable changes.I just wondered if there was a noticable difference - if so what are the differences?.. more energy in the morning / performing better in sporting hobbies maybe.. better movements in the toilet?
When I stopped smoking (probably 10 years ago or more) There were no major differences, apart from my hands not smelling after a smoke break, or maybe I became slightly more aware of the smell of smoke that lingered on those around me that were still smoking.
The only way I did 'feel better / good' was that my worry / self loathing of being addicted to something damaging and expensive had gone. The tricky bit was breaking the associations with smoking and shared moments with friends (at the top of a ski run, after a trackday, down the pub with mates, working on a car in the garage)
Also when I have a bacon, egg and sausage sandwich.. in really nice bread, with tomato sauce.. possibly browning off the bread in the frying pan for even more flavor - its bloody amazing!!.. people come from other parts of the house to join in the experience, animals gather around my feet!! (this is only an occasional treat) So I'd need vegitarianism / veganism to make me feel that good to even consider turning my back on bacon / sausage etc for ever. I have non of the little niggles that came with smoking about the food I eat - hopefully that makes sense.
I wake easier and earlier, and am more alert first thing in the morning
Alcohol has a greater affect on me. I have a couple and feel like I've hammered it.
As for the rest, I'm pretty fit anyway but to gain a little in weight when I take a break from cycling. I'm cycling now and feel full of energy when I do, but without increasing activity I have dropped 3kg in the past 3 weeks.
We'll see how it goes, I'm not committing to anything, but so far so good. My son feels even better about it than me. He feels much better since starting it.
LimaDelta said:
grumbledoak said:
Really? I’m pretty sure B12 deficiency is real
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamin-b12-or-folat...
I'm sure the deficiency is real, but what I was referring to was the fact that we need meat for B12. Especially since farm animals are given a B12 supplement.https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamin-b12-or-folat...
El stovey said:
grumbledoak said:
El stovey said:
The b12 thing was debunked years ago.
Really? I’m pretty sure B12 deficiency is realhttps://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamin-b12-or-folat...
i4got said:
Did either of you actually read the NHS link. ? It specifically says that a vegan diet can cause a B12 deficiency.
It can cause a deficiency, the point is it doesn't automatically. It is worth reminding new vegans to keep an eye on it (supplements or a shot every now and then will sort it) but it is entirely possible to keep up your B12 on a vegan diet.It can take a long time for NHS guidance to catch up to 'new' ideas, I was going to use the 'eat-well wheel' as an example but they have finally updated it.
SamR380 said:
i4got said:
Did either of you actually read the NHS link. ? It specifically says that a vegan diet can cause a B12 deficiency.
It can cause a deficiency, the point is it doesn't automatically. It is worth reminding new vegans to keep an eye on it (supplements or a shot every now and then will sort it) but it is entirely possible to keep up your B12 on a vegan diet.It can take a long time for NHS guidance to catch up to 'new' ideas, I was going to use the 'eat-well wheel' as an example but they have finally updated it.
I found it very one sided and presented a lot of "science facts". The problem with that is for every peer reviewed paper on experiment x, there's often another which appears to say exactly the opposite. So when a documentary presents one side of an argument in a flashy way, people love to jump on the bandwagon.
Let's go nuts here:
Eat sensible portions, healthily. Colourful food, as close to it's natural state as possible. Everything in moderation.
Maintain an active lifestyle.
Get plenty of good quality sleep.
Don't bottle up your problems.
Recognise that everyone is an individual, and therefore everyone's "perfect" diet is different.
It's f
king rocket science I tell you.
Let's go nuts here:
Eat sensible portions, healthily. Colourful food, as close to it's natural state as possible. Everything in moderation.
Maintain an active lifestyle.
Get plenty of good quality sleep.
Don't bottle up your problems.
Recognise that everyone is an individual, and therefore everyone's "perfect" diet is different.
It's f
king rocket science I tell you.Smitters said:
I found it very one sided and presented a lot of "science facts". The problem with that is for every peer reviewed paper on experiment x, there's often another which appears to say exactly the opposite. So when a documentary presents one side of an argument in a flashy way, people love to jump on the bandwagon.
Let's go nuts here:
Eat sensible portions, healthily. Colourful food, as close to it's natural state as possible. Everything in moderation.
Maintain an active lifestyle.
Get plenty of good quality sleep.
Don't bottle up your problems.
Recognise that everyone is an individual, and therefore everyone's "perfect" diet is different.
It's fking rocket science I tell you.
The link I posted is worth a watchLet's go nuts here:
Eat sensible portions, healthily. Colourful food, as close to it's natural state as possible. Everything in moderation.
Maintain an active lifestyle.
Get plenty of good quality sleep.
Don't bottle up your problems.
Recognise that everyone is an individual, and therefore everyone's "perfect" diet is different.
It's f
king rocket science I tell you.
m3sye said:
Smitters said:
m3sye said:
The link I posted is worth a watch
I'll see if I can find something else with the guy, but I cannot stand 10 seconds of Rogan.LordGrover said:
I've read/listened to a lot of Chris Kresser - got a lot of time for him. Very knowledgeable.
But, his delivery is painful and he comes across as very geeky/nerdy.
Sounds right up my street.But, his delivery is painful and he comes across as very geeky/nerdy.
As an aside, I recently listened to an interview with Kirk Parsley on sleep. Twas enlightening, especially because implementing it is essentially free.
What’s wrong with Joe Rogan? I’ve only very recently started listening to his podcasts as I had recently written him off as a bit of a ‘bloke’, all the UFC and that, but he seems a very rounded and balanced person. My only criticism is that he talks about the same stuff a lot of the time.
horsemeatscandal said:
What’s wrong with Joe Rogan? I’ve only very recently started listening to his podcasts as I had recently written him off as a bit of a ‘bloke’, all the UFC and that, but he seems a very rounded and balanced person. My only criticism is that he talks about the same stuff a lot of the time.
Edit: he just did one with Josh Homme and didn’t talk about mushrooms. Unacceptable.I haven't watched GC yet and I doubt I will, but I've read up a little about it. It seems that it's painting a very rosey picture of veganism that wouldn't necessarily be easy for your average punter to replicate. A lot of the "science" it presents is extremely questionable or just wrong.
Don't get me wrong, it's a personal choice what anyone eats and I don't have a problem with people deciding for themselves. What I do have a problem is when propoganda is being presented to the public as "fact" when even the slightest investigation shows up some blantant bullstting. I'll declare my interest here at this point, I am a livestock and crop farmer, and as such I have an interest in a huge range of subjects around agriculture, environment, nutrition, biology, chemistry, etc etc.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about how much water it is claimed that beef production takes. This is one of those "facts" that isn't a fact at all. It's claimed that every kg of beef "uses" an enormous amount of water, water that could be used to better effect elsewhere. The reality is that they're measuring rainfall on a field, whether there's an animal grazing there or not is merely by the by, but it is a ridiculous way to calculate these things. And the trouble is, much of these claims that livestock are destroying the planet are based on nonsense such as this. It's no wonder large numbers of people are believing such rubbish when it's all presented in a neatly packaged film like this. Believe you me, where I farm we have waaay too much water falling out of the skies, which brings me on to my next point about the media push to annihilate livestock farming.
Certainly in this country (and most others around the world) ruminant livestock (cattle, sheep, goats, etc) graze grass and forage crops generally. They also have a low proportion of their diets including arable crop byproducts during the winter months when it's too wet for them to be outside. Sonething like over 60% of global grassland isn't suitable for growing human crops and so should remain as grassland. That's where ruminants come in. They eat this food that humans can't and convert it into something nutrient dense for humans to eat. The quality of protein (for example) in meat is far higher than in vegan crops. So the world isn't simply going to plough out all of this grassland to provide huge amoints of vegan food because the land wouldn't be productive enough. Then we hear about rain forests being razed to make way for cattle farming. Logically you'll find that the rain forests are being cleared to grow soya, palm oil etc, then once the soil has become depleted cattle farming takes up the rear. Not really what is being presented to the general public though is it? No doubt the upcoming BBC documentary will ignore the reality in order to claim it's cattle ranching that's the baddie. And don't even get me started on all the carbon side of it
I've prob bored you enough now but it's heartening that there are a few posters who realise that everything in moderation is absolutely the way to go for anyone who's confused by all of these claims and counter claims. i can tell you right now that the farming industry in the UK is in a state of outright depression at the state of the current media propoganda war. What is outraging us so much is the amount of utter utter garbage that is being presented as fact. I'm not saying GC is chock full of such garbage as I haven't seen it but I'm talking about the media in general.
Don't get me wrong, it's a personal choice what anyone eats and I don't have a problem with people deciding for themselves. What I do have a problem is when propoganda is being presented to the public as "fact" when even the slightest investigation shows up some blantant bulls
tting. I'll declare my interest here at this point, I am a livestock and crop farmer, and as such I have an interest in a huge range of subjects around agriculture, environment, nutrition, biology, chemistry, etc etc.Someone mentioned earlier in the thread about how much water it is claimed that beef production takes. This is one of those "facts" that isn't a fact at all. It's claimed that every kg of beef "uses" an enormous amount of water, water that could be used to better effect elsewhere. The reality is that they're measuring rainfall on a field, whether there's an animal grazing there or not is merely by the by, but it is a ridiculous way to calculate these things. And the trouble is, much of these claims that livestock are destroying the planet are based on nonsense such as this. It's no wonder large numbers of people are believing such rubbish when it's all presented in a neatly packaged film like this. Believe you me, where I farm we have waaay too much water falling out of the skies, which brings me on to my next point about the media push to annihilate livestock farming.
Certainly in this country (and most others around the world) ruminant livestock (cattle, sheep, goats, etc) graze grass and forage crops generally. They also have a low proportion of their diets including arable crop byproducts during the winter months when it's too wet for them to be outside. Sonething like over 60% of global grassland isn't suitable for growing human crops and so should remain as grassland. That's where ruminants come in. They eat this food that humans can't and convert it into something nutrient dense for humans to eat. The quality of protein (for example) in meat is far higher than in vegan crops. So the world isn't simply going to plough out all of this grassland to provide huge amoints of vegan food because the land wouldn't be productive enough. Then we hear about rain forests being razed to make way for cattle farming. Logically you'll find that the rain forests are being cleared to grow soya, palm oil etc, then once the soil has become depleted cattle farming takes up the rear. Not really what is being presented to the general public though is it? No doubt the upcoming BBC documentary will ignore the reality in order to claim it's cattle ranching that's the baddie. And don't even get me started on all the carbon side of it
I've prob bored you enough now but it's heartening that there are a few posters who realise that everything in moderation is absolutely the way to go for anyone who's confused by all of these claims and counter claims. i can tell you right now that the farming industry in the UK is in a state of outright depression at the state of the current media propoganda war. What is outraging us so much is the amount of utter utter garbage that is being presented as fact. I'm not saying GC is chock full of such garbage as I haven't seen it but I'm talking about the media in general.
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