Confronting Holocaust Denial: BBC2
Discussion
mac96 said:
You can have opinions on some 'historical' events. Who was King Arthur? Did Robin Hood really rob the rich and give to the poor? That is because they are poorly documented and there is real doubt.
Not the Holocaust though. There are survivors still around. There are old guys who were in the liberating armies who saw the piled up bodies. There are records.. This is not a matter of opinion.
Disputing these facts is not just ridiculous but is part of a whole antisemitic narrative, which makes it a bit different from flat earthers and the like.
No one who thinks King Arthur never existed is making a point about the right of the descendants of Dark Ages Britons to live normal lives.
How can this not be obvious to any Uk/European person?
The only criticism i'd make of the programme was that it, quite understandably, concentrated on Jews as victims. It's the Nazis we need to remember as well- because they were civilised, cultured people, listening to classical music and reading literature- people just like us. And yet they committed the most unspeakable acts of the 20th Century. We need to remember them to make damn sure we never do anything like it in the future., whoever the next lot of victims might be.
the only criticism I could make is that not enough seems to be made of the other victims (gays, political prisoners, mentally ill, disabled, Slavs, Roma and others) but other than that rock on, more strength to the BBC. FWIW I do agree about the veneer of civilisation surrounding the nazis, many did seem to be up-right members of society (though obviously many were misfits)Not the Holocaust though. There are survivors still around. There are old guys who were in the liberating armies who saw the piled up bodies. There are records.. This is not a matter of opinion.
Disputing these facts is not just ridiculous but is part of a whole antisemitic narrative, which makes it a bit different from flat earthers and the like.
No one who thinks King Arthur never existed is making a point about the right of the descendants of Dark Ages Britons to live normal lives.
How can this not be obvious to any Uk/European person?
The only criticism i'd make of the programme was that it, quite understandably, concentrated on Jews as victims. It's the Nazis we need to remember as well- because they were civilised, cultured people, listening to classical music and reading literature- people just like us. And yet they committed the most unspeakable acts of the 20th Century. We need to remember them to make damn sure we never do anything like it in the future., whoever the next lot of victims might be.
Jukebag said:
Im not saying either way about the Holocaust as I've not looked into much, all I'm saying is that people have the right to ask questions and have an opinion. As for 9/11, it's obvious the Sept 11th attacks werent carried out by Bin Laden.
Asking questions about the holocaust = fineEven hinting that it didn't happen or questioning whether it happened = first degree
with nothing but hatred as motivation. No ifs, buts or maybes. An excellent and important documentary made by the BBC - well worth the licence fee (to conflate with another thread).
I thought Baddiel was excellent, his emotions and thoughts were clear; and his doubt on how best to approach the deniers was credible.
There is no doubt on the holocaust and any attempt to “re-interpret” the history and the scale of the atrocity is to demean the memory of those who lost their lives and diminishes the horror of the evil which was perpetrated.
There were others who were victimised and they, too, should be recognised; that does not change the right of the Jewish communities to demand that the truth of the history is recognised and remembered.
I thought Baddiel was excellent, his emotions and thoughts were clear; and his doubt on how best to approach the deniers was credible.
There is no doubt on the holocaust and any attempt to “re-interpret” the history and the scale of the atrocity is to demean the memory of those who lost their lives and diminishes the horror of the evil which was perpetrated.
There were others who were victimised and they, too, should be recognised; that does not change the right of the Jewish communities to demand that the truth of the history is recognised and remembered.
jonby said:
Jukebag said:
Im not saying either way about the Holocaust as I've not looked into much, all I'm saying is that people have the right to ask questions and have an opinion. As for 9/11, it's obvious the Sept 11th attacks werent carried out by Bin Laden.
Asking questions about the holocaust = fineEven hinting that it didn't happen or questioning whether it happened = first degree
with nothing but hatred as motivation. No ifs, buts or maybes. As was said in the program, if you do not learn you will not understand. Education and the facts are required, until then it is understandable for there to questions.
You cannot move your knowledge forward : if you do not ask the correct questions : if you are not shown even the basics. It is why so many kids think Churchill is most famous for selling Car Insurance.
Jukebag said:
Im not saying either way about the Holocaust as I've not looked into much, all I'm saying is that people have the right to ask questions and have an opinion. As for 9/11, it's obvious the Sept 11th attacks werent carried out by Bin Laden.
An opinion based on ignorance is just that, ignorant. The entire history of the holocaust is at your fingertips. To try and excuse ignorance by saying ‘I’ve not looked into it’ is frankly pathetic.
Go and look into it. Then come back and read what you’ve written.
By the way, it has f
k all to do with 9/11. mac96 said:
You can have opinions on some 'historical' events. Who was King Arthur? Did Robin Hood really rob the rich and give to the poor? That is because they are poorly documented and there is real doubt.
Not the Holocaust though. There are survivors still around. There are old guys who were in the liberating armies who saw the piled up bodies. There are records.. This is not a matter of opinion.
Disputing these facts is not just ridiculous but is part of a whole antisemitic narrative, which makes it a bit different from flat earthers and the like.
No one who thinks King Arthur never existed is making a point about the right of the descendants of Dark Ages Britons to live normal lives.
How can this not be obvious to any Uk/European person?
The only criticism i'd make of the programme was that it, quite understandably, concentrated on Jews as victims. It's the Nazis we need to remember as well- because they were civilised, cultured people, listening to classical music and reading literature- people just like us. And yet they committed the most unspeakable acts of the 20th Century. We need to remember them to make damn sure we never do anything like it in the future., whoever the next lot of victims might be.
I was about to write essentially this post in response to Jukebag, but I think I'll essentially repeat it. You can't say 'I'm not sure either way on the Holocaust.' It's like saying you're not sure either way on the existence of anything from history: are you sure about the East India Company, the Battle of Trafalgar or government of Gladstone. The answer is yes because there is documentary evidence so historians debate the causes, effects significance etc of these things but not their actual reality!Not the Holocaust though. There are survivors still around. There are old guys who were in the liberating armies who saw the piled up bodies. There are records.. This is not a matter of opinion.
Disputing these facts is not just ridiculous but is part of a whole antisemitic narrative, which makes it a bit different from flat earthers and the like.
No one who thinks King Arthur never existed is making a point about the right of the descendants of Dark Ages Britons to live normal lives.
How can this not be obvious to any Uk/European person?
The only criticism i'd make of the programme was that it, quite understandably, concentrated on Jews as victims. It's the Nazis we need to remember as well- because they were civilised, cultured people, listening to classical music and reading literature- people just like us. And yet they committed the most unspeakable acts of the 20th Century. We need to remember them to make damn sure we never do anything like it in the future., whoever the next lot of victims might be.
You could argue there are some parallels with older history. We teach the students at school Harald Hardrada's Vikings were so soundly defeated at Fulford that they went home on 24 of the 300 ships on which they arrived. This number is in the textbook and is originally taken from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. You could therefore question those numbers, e.g. did 6000 die at Fulford, was it 7000, or 5000? But that's because we are basing it on a thousand year old chronicle. The weight of evidence on something like the Holocaust is just overwhelming in comparison. In fact, give the deniers a MILLION as a margin of error and they're still wrong.
I really enjoyed it. Some stand out moments.
"I've always thought conspiracy theories were a way of idiots feeling like intellectuals". This is so true.
"Jews run the world...you run the BBC"
"If I ran the BBC, I'd really be on it more"
If the holocaust didn't happen, that 89 y/o woman has missed a trick, because she could have been a multi Oscar winning actress had she put her mind to it.
"I've always thought conspiracy theories were a way of idiots feeling like intellectuals". This is so true.
"Jews run the world...you run the BBC"
"If I ran the BBC, I'd really be on it more"
If the holocaust didn't happen, that 89 y/o woman has missed a trick, because she could have been a multi Oscar winning actress had she put her mind to it.
ash73 said:
Interesting programme but not sure why the Irish idiot was given any air time, what's the point? People like him should be ridiculed, not taken seriously. I guess it's difficult to joke about something so serious.
The British intelligence memo was eye opening.
Exactly, there we a few snippets of "proof" (which are well known so hardly a revelation) and the rest was flat, unconnected and poorly presented. The British intelligence memo was eye opening.
A shame and a waste, the BBC could have made a great program but it decided to do the "Celebrity Presents" thing (dumbed down and typical these days), as a historical subject presenter he was very very average and the program was no better than a A level student could present.
Imagine what an experienced historical presenter like Lucy Worsley may have achieved.
Edited by Dont like rolls on Tuesday 18th February 21:40
Dont like rolls said:
Imagine what an experienced historical presenter like Lucy Worsley may have achieved.
Far lower viewing figures (and I like Lucy Worsley). People will have watched this, who never would have given the time of day to a history type programme with Lucy Worsley, because it's presented by David Baddiel. And people who aren't keen on Baddiel but like historical stuff may still have watched it because of the subject matter.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Dont like rolls said:
Imagine what an experienced historical presenter like Lucy Worsley may have achieved.
Far lower viewing figures (and I like Lucy Worsley). People will have watched this, who never would have given the time of day to a history type programme with Lucy Worsley, because it's presented by David Baddiel. And people who aren't keen on Baddiel but like historical stuff may still have watched it because of the subject matter.
Halmyre said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Dont like rolls said:
Imagine what an experienced historical presenter like Lucy Worsley may have achieved.
Far lower viewing figures (and I like Lucy Worsley). People will have watched this, who never would have given the time of day to a history type programme with Lucy Worsley, because it's presented by David Baddiel. And people who aren't keen on Baddiel but like historical stuff may still have watched it because of the subject matter.
I add, I do not limit to her alone, there are many others who can present in a "joined-up" way....Baddiel cannot present historical facts that way as was seen.
Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff