LOKI - Marvel's best TV Series To Date?
Discussion
highway said:
Arc wasn’t earned. There was no transition.
It was Loki in name only. May as well have told
The same story but inserted Balder, Heimdall or any other character you recognise.
They took a character we knew but bent him completely out of shape. That’s not an arc. It’s lazy writing
It’s interesting that you view it differently from most.It was Loki in name only. May as well have told
The same story but inserted Balder, Heimdall or any other character you recognise.
They took a character we knew but bent him completely out of shape. That’s not an arc. It’s lazy writing
I think the journey from where he was in the first Thor film to where he is at the end of Loki season 2 is not as far as you suggest.
For over a millennia Loki may have been the mischievous brother, but he was part of a family that loved him. There was nothing to suggest he was ‘evil’. Thor’s coronation was the catalyst of his scheme to grab the throne, but he wasn’t any more arrogant than Thor himself at that point. Something happened between Thor 1 and Avengers 1 which we did not see, but he returned angry and out to grab a throne. The transition between those two films is the biggest shift in his character, because it’s the only time he’s been that nasty. But even then there was hint he was acting under orders. His appearance suggests he may even have been tortured, which would not be a surprise for anyone working with Thanos.
TL;DR: Loki was never that bad, so it wasn’t impossible to believe he would do the right thing to protect all of time.
But you don't like it, and nothing I say will change your mind.
The first Avengers film saw him pull someone’s eyeball out to open a door. I’d say he was a bad guy. They reset the character in the show, to the version from the end of Avengers. The two seasons of Loki after that apparently chart the transition.
As I’ve said, I found it unconvincing. Hiddlestone is game but I honestly thought the show was mostly a mess.
The kicker for me (as I’ve said before) is that the love for the source material is baked into me.
As BW13 points out, I enjoyed the films,
Like many, upto Endgame.
After that I feel they’ve lost their way. I’d struggle to see anyone claiming that the Falcon and Winter Soldier, Moon Knight or Secret Invasion were in anyway compelling stories. Given the resources DIsney has, the actors they can cast and the access to talent, it’s staggering as to how they can keep getting it so badly wrong, for so long.
They literally have all the source material to tap into, much of which would translate to screenplay with just a little work. So why not do that?
I am a critical friend. As I suspect are many others. Some of the characters the films have tried to shift focus to, have never been successful as comics. Typically these were titles that were launched, cancelled, relaunched and cancelled again.
Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, She Hulk, Captain Marvel all on that list.
Disney have owned Fox for years now and still, no use of characters that it’s proven people want to see? What a failure of
vision.
Feige should dump plans for a weary sounding Avengers Kang Dynasty and dump the Young Avengers concept. Move to Secret Wars with the writers and directors from IW and Endgame. Introduce the X Men then reset the universe.
I don’t doubt the original Avengers cast will be brought back to screen either.
As I’ve said, I found it unconvincing. Hiddlestone is game but I honestly thought the show was mostly a mess.
The kicker for me (as I’ve said before) is that the love for the source material is baked into me.
As BW13 points out, I enjoyed the films,
Like many, upto Endgame.
After that I feel they’ve lost their way. I’d struggle to see anyone claiming that the Falcon and Winter Soldier, Moon Knight or Secret Invasion were in anyway compelling stories. Given the resources DIsney has, the actors they can cast and the access to talent, it’s staggering as to how they can keep getting it so badly wrong, for so long.
They literally have all the source material to tap into, much of which would translate to screenplay with just a little work. So why not do that?
I am a critical friend. As I suspect are many others. Some of the characters the films have tried to shift focus to, have never been successful as comics. Typically these were titles that were launched, cancelled, relaunched and cancelled again.
Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, She Hulk, Captain Marvel all on that list.
Disney have owned Fox for years now and still, no use of characters that it’s proven people want to see? What a failure of
vision.
Feige should dump plans for a weary sounding Avengers Kang Dynasty and dump the Young Avengers concept. Move to Secret Wars with the writers and directors from IW and Endgame. Introduce the X Men then reset the universe.
I don’t doubt the original Avengers cast will be brought back to screen either.
highway said:
The first Avengers film saw him pull someone’s eyeball out to open a door. I’d say he was a bad guy. They reset the character in the show, to the version from the end of Avengers. The two seasons of Loki after that apparently chart the transition.
As I’ve said, I found it unconvincing. Hiddlestone is game but I honestly thought the show was mostly a mess.
The kicker for me (as I’ve said before) is that the love for the source material is baked into me.
As BW13 points out, I enjoyed the films,
Like many, upto Endgame.
After that I feel they’ve lost their way. I’d struggle to see anyone claiming that the Falcon and Winter Soldier, Moon Knight or Secret Invasion were in anyway compelling stories. Given the resources DIsney has, the actors they can cast and the access to talent, it’s staggering as to how they can keep getting it so badly wrong, for so long.
They literally have all the source material to tap into, much of which would translate to screenplay with just a little work. So why not do that?
I am a critical friend. As I suspect are many others. Some of the characters the films have tried to shift focus to, have never been successful as comics. Typically these were titles that were launched, cancelled, relaunched and cancelled again.
Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, She Hulk, Captain Marvel all on that list.
Disney have owned Fox for years now and still, no use of characters that it’s proven people want to see? What a failure of
vision.
Feige should dump plans for a weary sounding Avengers Kang Dynasty and dump the Young Avengers concept. Move to Secret Wars with the writers and directors from IW and Endgame. Introduce the X Men then reset the universe.
I don’t doubt the original Avengers cast will be brought back to screen either.
I find myself agreeing with many of your points. Yes, most of the MCU output after IW hasn't been at the same level. Yes, they're now relying too much on the TV shows filling out storylines and setting up future films which IMO is a mistake and disengaging those who haven't seen "everything". I was literally having the conversation with 3 friends last night who were tempted to see The Marvels but hadn't seen Ms Marvel. Until I told them they didn't need to they probably wouldn't have gone, which is why it's probably doing so poorly despite being quite good. As I’ve said, I found it unconvincing. Hiddlestone is game but I honestly thought the show was mostly a mess.
The kicker for me (as I’ve said before) is that the love for the source material is baked into me.
As BW13 points out, I enjoyed the films,
Like many, upto Endgame.
After that I feel they’ve lost their way. I’d struggle to see anyone claiming that the Falcon and Winter Soldier, Moon Knight or Secret Invasion were in anyway compelling stories. Given the resources DIsney has, the actors they can cast and the access to talent, it’s staggering as to how they can keep getting it so badly wrong, for so long.
They literally have all the source material to tap into, much of which would translate to screenplay with just a little work. So why not do that?
I am a critical friend. As I suspect are many others. Some of the characters the films have tried to shift focus to, have never been successful as comics. Typically these were titles that were launched, cancelled, relaunched and cancelled again.
Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, She Hulk, Captain Marvel all on that list.
Disney have owned Fox for years now and still, no use of characters that it’s proven people want to see? What a failure of
vision.
Feige should dump plans for a weary sounding Avengers Kang Dynasty and dump the Young Avengers concept. Move to Secret Wars with the writers and directors from IW and Endgame. Introduce the X Men then reset the universe.
I don’t doubt the original Avengers cast will be brought back to screen either.
Yes, they are absolutely wasting the X-Men franchise and Fantastic 4. They already know how to do these characters, so put them in already. There's money and fans on the table there with those characters.
I also agree that it's almost certain at this point that the original Avengers will come back in some way by Secret Wars as that's literally the whole point of this run and setting up Secret Wars, in that they can bring in everyone from every film if they want. Wouldn't be surprised if we get Wesley Snipes back as Blade in Deadpool 3 (I'm joking, but you get the idea). Next year, we just get Deadpool 3 and I'm fine with that, they should use the break to actually focus on a few core things rather than 37 TV shows that just preview one upcoming film in 5 years time.
I still however think you're wrong, fundamentally, about Loki and his arc. It's literally in the comics so I don't get why you're willing to die on the hill that he is and always shall be purely evil. He never was in the MCU, he's always been morally ambiguous and that's pretty consistent throughout. I see nothing wrong with having him redeem himself after all this time, for me it's far better than him simply once again betraying everyone or his own gain. That's actual character development and GOOD writing which shows a deep understanding of the character.
highway said:
The first Avengers film saw him pull someone’s eyeball out to open a door. I’d say he was a bad guy. They reset the character in the show, to the version from the end of Avengers. The two seasons of Loki after that apparently chart the transition.
As I’ve said, I found it unconvincing. Hiddlestone is game but I honestly thought the show was mostly a mess.
The kicker for me (as I’ve said before) is that the love for the source material is baked into me.
As BW13 points out, I enjoyed the films,
Like many, upto Endgame.
After that I feel they’ve lost their way. I’d struggle to see anyone claiming that the Falcon and Winter Soldier, Moon Knight or Secret Invasion were in anyway compelling stories. Given the resources DIsney has, the actors they can cast and the access to talent, it’s staggering as to how they can keep getting it so badly wrong, for so long.
They literally have all the source material to tap into, much of which would translate to screenplay with just a little work. So why not do that?
I am a critical friend. As I suspect are many others. Some of the characters the films have tried to shift focus to, have never been successful as comics. Typically these were titles that were launched, cancelled, relaunched and cancelled again.
Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, She Hulk, Captain Marvel all on that list.
Disney have owned Fox for years now and still, no use of characters that it’s proven people want to see? What a failure of
vision.
Feige should dump plans for a weary sounding Avengers Kang Dynasty and dump the Young Avengers concept. Move to Secret Wars with the writers and directors from IW and Endgame. Introduce the X Men then reset the universe.
I don’t doubt the original Avengers cast will be brought back to screen either.
None of this stuff really stands up to scrutiny if you analyse it too deeply, in my opinion.As I’ve said, I found it unconvincing. Hiddlestone is game but I honestly thought the show was mostly a mess.
The kicker for me (as I’ve said before) is that the love for the source material is baked into me.
As BW13 points out, I enjoyed the films,
Like many, upto Endgame.
After that I feel they’ve lost their way. I’d struggle to see anyone claiming that the Falcon and Winter Soldier, Moon Knight or Secret Invasion were in anyway compelling stories. Given the resources DIsney has, the actors they can cast and the access to talent, it’s staggering as to how they can keep getting it so badly wrong, for so long.
They literally have all the source material to tap into, much of which would translate to screenplay with just a little work. So why not do that?
I am a critical friend. As I suspect are many others. Some of the characters the films have tried to shift focus to, have never been successful as comics. Typically these were titles that were launched, cancelled, relaunched and cancelled again.
Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang Chi, She Hulk, Captain Marvel all on that list.
Disney have owned Fox for years now and still, no use of characters that it’s proven people want to see? What a failure of
vision.
Feige should dump plans for a weary sounding Avengers Kang Dynasty and dump the Young Avengers concept. Move to Secret Wars with the writers and directors from IW and Endgame. Introduce the X Men then reset the universe.
I don’t doubt the original Avengers cast will be brought back to screen either.
You're right that Loki killed people, and the family and friends of those people are unforgiving I'm sure. In the "normal" world there would be no coming back from that sort of thing, but it doesn't really make for very compelling television if a "baddie" is damned forever.
Wanda killed loads of people but we the audience are supposed to buy in to the whole "final redemption" moment.
I'm not saying you're wrong, only that analysing this stuff according to the rules of the outside reality probably isn't worth it.
I don’t care for the modern trend of redeeming villains. We have enough anti heroes as is. Nothing wrong with a villain being a villain. I fell off comics continuity after Hickmans long delayed Secret Wars. For me Loki had always been a villain and as I’ve tried to explain, the journey for the character here seemed truncated and unbelievable. All the sneering arrogance removed almost immediately, leaving a character on a journey- but not Loki. He’s thousands of years old. The events here weren’t enough, for me, to justify the transition. It could have been a story about anyone. It didn’t need to be Loki. Given the series could have been about anything at all, i thought it a poor narrative to go with. Anyway- it’s all just opinion and I’m glad many liked it.
The trailer for Echo leaves me cold so I’ll likely give that a miss. Not sure what they have coming after that.
Hopefully the performance of the latest film will cause them to have a serious rethink of their storytelling. If you want to send a social message you need to be subtle. Not hitting people over the head with it.
There’s also no excuse, given the budgets, for sci fi channel level VFX. Pay people’s properly, give realistic timescales for work to be done and then demand high quality.
I wonder if Feiges best days are behind him.
The trailer for Echo leaves me cold so I’ll likely give that a miss. Not sure what they have coming after that.
Hopefully the performance of the latest film will cause them to have a serious rethink of their storytelling. If you want to send a social message you need to be subtle. Not hitting people over the head with it.
There’s also no excuse, given the budgets, for sci fi channel level VFX. Pay people’s properly, give realistic timescales for work to be done and then demand high quality.
I wonder if Feiges best days are behind him.
highway said:
Hopefully the performance of the latest film will cause them to have a serious rethink of their storytelling. If you want to send a social message you need to be subtle. Not hitting people over the head with it.
Eh? Are you talking about The Marvels? What was the "social message"? Durzel said:
For something that wasn't subtle you seem to be struggling to articulate exactly what it was? 
Not really. It’s well documented. Couldn’t care about the race of characters, or their gender. I just want good storytelling without forced agenda or politics. I didn’t care for the trailers on the Marvels and I haven’t liked the look of the last few offerings either. So I don’t visit cinema to see them.
BlackWidow13 said:
Wrong. It’s an arc.
It just so happens to be an arc you don’t like, in a series you don’t like, which is one of a selection of series and films you don’t like.
I honestly don’t know why you bother posting in these threads any more. You’ve posted the same thing about everything since IW. It’s really tedious. Especially now you’re struggling to make up cogent criticisms.
HAND.
Coming across there as someone who doesn’t like opinions that don’t align with their own. Saw you swiping at someone on the other MCU thread with your perception about what element of Endgame he must have objected to. It just so happens to be an arc you don’t like, in a series you don’t like, which is one of a selection of series and films you don’t like.
I honestly don’t know why you bother posting in these threads any more. You’ve posted the same thing about everything since IW. It’s really tedious. Especially now you’re struggling to make up cogent criticisms.
HAND.
You may be very happy with the current MCU content. Good for you. Others feel differently, for a variety of reasons. This is a forum to discuss opinion. It’s not for you to criticise what others think, or what you think they think. It’s not for you to suggest people don’t contribute to debate.
You are behaving like a wannabe super villain. Power down! (Joke!!)
Corso Marche said:
Question - Will not watching season 2 of Loki lead to missing out on anything in future MCU stuff?
Kang was introduced in season 1. Is there anything in season 2 which might be relevant for future MCU stuff?
If The Marvels is anything to go by, they do expect you to have watched the streaming shows. But until we see what the future films do, we won’t know whether it’s essential to watch Loki, or if it just adds a deeper understanding of Kang and the multiverse. Kang was introduced in season 1. Is there anything in season 2 which might be relevant for future MCU stuff?
Corso Marche said:
Question - Will not watching season 2 of Loki lead to missing out on anything in future MCU stuff?
Kang was introduced in season 1. Is there anything in season 2 which might be relevant for future MCU stuff?
It's worth watching because it's very good on it's own, but no, I don't expect you won't be able to follow stuff later on. It'll just pay off a bit in the future as I expect characters to show up in other stuff (Mobius for example). Kang was introduced in season 1. Is there anything in season 2 which might be relevant for future MCU stuff?
Not watching Wandavision or Ms Marvel doesn't really affect your ability to enjoy The Marvels for example, they explain everything you need to know well enough early on and with flashbacks.
Corso Marche said:
Thanks to all for answering, I might watch the last episode of Season 2 of Loki, just to see how it ended and may or may not set things up across the extended MCU.
I wouldn’t watch the last episode on its own. You’d be better off reading a series synopsis. But actually if suggest you watch the show it its entirety, as it’s one of the best things the MCU has done since End Game.
Thanks, but I was thoroughly disappointed with Season 1 and sorry I wasted time finishing it. Internet wisdom on season 2 seemed to suggest more of the same so I decided not to risk the same disappointment and frustration at losing further time to it.
A synopsis is probably a fair bet though, and likely the best option.
A synopsis is probably a fair bet though, and likely the best option.
Corso Marche said:
Thanks, but I was thoroughly disappointed with Season 1 and sorry I wasted time finishing it. Internet wisdom on season 2 seemed to suggest more of the same so I decided not to risk the same disappointment and frustration at losing further time to it.
A synopsis is probably a fair bet though, and likely the best option.
Yeah, if you didn't like season 1, there's no reason to watch season 2.A synopsis is probably a fair bet though, and likely the best option.
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