Mr Bates vs The Post Office

Author
Discussion

Eric Mc

122,055 posts

266 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
blueg33 said:
There is no doubt that the senior people would not be thick, you simply don't make it to that level if you are.
In regards to the Post Office - I'm not so sure.

Castrol for a knave

4,716 posts

92 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
blueg33 said:
Eric Mc said:
Castrol for a knave said:
SydneyBridge said:
But she remembered earlier that a particular email was sent/received on a sunday
She's so stupid - she seems to delight in saying she can remember anything that supports her,................ but forgets anything that does not.
She reminds me a bit of Bonnie Tyler - although not as smart.

And she certainly doesn't come across as the ice-maiden she was portrayed as in "Mr Bates V' the Post Office".
I suspect these senior people come into the inquiry with the aim to play a character that they think will help them. (note - the investigators were too stupid to realise that coming across as a bullying asshole won't help)

There is no doubt that the senior people would not be thick, you simply don't make it to that level if you are.
She'll be well briefed, but you and I will have met plenty like her who bully their way to senior management. They are not stupid, but not as sharp as they think and not sharp as a decent KC.

They all seem to portray the nasty detail as if it is something discussed while making a brew, but not something any of them has any involvement in, heaven forfend.

Short Grain

2,773 posts

221 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
"So what did you actually do then?"

clap

According to AvdB she wasn't responsible for anything! She's actually robbed the post office, of her salary at least!


blueg33

35,987 posts

225 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
Castrol for a knave said:
She'll be well briefed, but you and I will have met plenty like her who bully their way to senior management. They are not stupid, but not as sharp as they think and not sharp as a decent KC.
Thats a fair point

Mont Blanc

618 posts

44 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
Castrol for a knave said:
She'll be well briefed, but you and I will have met plenty like her who bully their way to senior management. They are not stupid, but not as sharp as they think and not sharp as a decent KC.

They all seem to portray the nasty detail as if it is something discussed while making a brew, but not something any of them has any involvement in, heaven forfend.
I agree completely.

In my line of work I have come across seniors/Directors, Exec Directors, and even Chief Execs who got there by a one or a combination of the following things:

Simply being in the right place at the right time.
Being very friendly with those above them - I'll protect you, you protect me, etc.
Being pushy and aggressive.
Throwing others under the bus to make themselves look ruthless and effective.

An organisation like the Post Office would be the absolute perfect place for people to be promoted on anything except their suitability for the job.

Eric Mc

122,055 posts

266 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
They were smart enough to be bullies but not smart enough to be able to stand up to any real scrutiny.

FiF

44,142 posts

252 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
So VDB thinks or believes that the burden of proof is/was on subpostmasters to prove their innocence rather than the PO to prove their guilt.

In the unlikely event she faces a court prosecution bet she argues the opposite in her case.

Is scum too mild an epithet?

LimmerickLad

931 posts

16 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
FiF said:
So VDB thinks or believes that the burden of proof is/was on subpostmasters to prove their innocence rather than the PO to prove their guilt.

In the unlikely event she faces a court prosecution bet she argues the opposite in her case.

Is scum too mild an epithet?
I quite like the fact that some witnesses e.g. Crichton, are coming back to face further Q's...ideal opportunity compare answers from later witnesses i.e. VDB etc?

tele_lover

308 posts

16 months

Thursday 25th April
quotequote all
In the Christian Horner thread it seems the PA could name both CH and RBR as defendents at Employment Tribunal.

If AVDB doesn't face criminal charges could SPOs litigate her (and that other woman) personally in the civil courts?

skwdenyer

16,528 posts

241 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
FiF said:
So VDB thinks or believes that the burden of proof is/was on subpostmasters to prove their innocence rather than the PO to prove their guilt.

In the unlikely event she faces a court prosecution bet she argues the opposite in her case.

Is scum too mild an epithet?
In fairness, she's sort of right. Unlike in many countries, the English courts have ruled that a computer system shall be assumed to be infallible unless the contrary can be proved.

The SPMs were only responsible for their errors. But the courts assume the computer is always right. Fujitsu seem to have provided a witness who was happy to state that the computer was indeed always right. Ergo the SPMs must be guilty.

The Post Office has behaved awfully. But there's a big hole in our justice system that nobody seems to be talking about.

e600

1,328 posts

153 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
Having watched KC Beers questioning of VDB, by her own admission she is guilty of PCOJ in the previous trials.

Does anyone know what the next phase of this exercise will be, ie post inquiry results, does CPS make a decision


Prolex-UK

3,068 posts

209 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
FiF said:
So VDB thinks or believes that the burden of proof is/was on subpostmasters to prove their innocence rather than the PO to prove their guilt.

In the unlikely event she faces a court prosecution bet she argues the opposite in her case.

Is scum too mild an epithet?
In fairness, she's sort of right. Unlike in many countries, the English courts have ruled that a computer system shall be assumed to be infallible unless the contrary can be proved.

The SPMs were only responsible for their errors. But the courts assume the computer is always right. Fujitsu seem to have provided a witness who was happy to state that the computer was indeed always right. Ergo the SPMs must be guilty.

The Post Office has behaved awfully. But there's a big hole in our justice system that nobody seems to be talking about.
Whenever a council tax or business summons is issued (in bulk) the court officer has to confirm that the system was working correctly to the court.

System produces a letter they produce

Did the PO have such a thing?

FiF

44,142 posts

252 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
Prolex-UK said:
skwdenyer said:
FiF said:
So VDB thinks or believes that the burden of proof is/was on subpostmasters to prove their innocence rather than the PO to prove their guilt.

In the unlikely event she faces a court prosecution bet she argues the opposite in her case.

Is scum too mild an epithet?
In fairness, she's sort of right. Unlike in many countries, the English courts have ruled that a computer system shall be assumed to be infallible unless the contrary can be proved.

The SPMs were only responsible for their errors. But the courts assume the computer is always right. Fujitsu seem to have provided a witness who was happy to state that the computer was indeed always right. Ergo the SPMs must be guilty.

The Post Office has behaved awfully. But there's a big hole in our justice system that nobody seems to be talking about.
Whenever a council tax or business summons is issued (in bulk) the court officer has to confirm that the system was working correctly to the court.

System produces a letter they produce

Did the PO have such a thing?
Let's not forget who lobbied for the change in the law to assume that the computer was always right.

Bonefish Blues

26,824 posts

224 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
e600 said:
Having watched KC Beers questioning of VDB, by her own admission she is guilty of PCOJ in the previous trials.

Does anyone know what the next phase of this exercise will be, ie post inquiry results, does CPS make a decision
Police have to put charges to the CPS & the CPS decides whether the prosecution can proceed.

Not sure I have heard any statements from the police on this - certainly not in the recent past?

siremoon

198 posts

100 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
skwdenyer said:
In fairness, she's sort of right. Unlike in many countries, the English courts have ruled that a computer system shall be assumed to be infallible unless the contrary can be proved.

The SPMs were only responsible for their errors. But the courts assume the computer is always right. Fujitsu seem to have provided a witness who was happy to state that the computer was indeed always right. Ergo the SPMs must be guilty.

The Post Office has behaved awfully. But there's a big hole in our justice system that nobody seems to be talking about.
However the assumption of computer infallibility is underpinned by the expectation that technical experts on a given system will not perjure themselves when asked under oath about any suspected defects.

Wills2

22,879 posts

176 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
siremoon said:
However the assumption of computer infallibility is underpinned by the expectation that technical experts on a given system will not perjure themselves when asked under oath about any suspected defects.
Also on the premise that a large government owned business wouldn't set about to pervert the course of justice by engaging in a wide spread conspiracy aided and abetted by Fujitsu/magic circle law firms/senior civil servants and government minsters all funded to the tune of £ hundreds of millions of tax payer money, Jenkins on his own is merely a pawn in that wider conspiracy.

When you stop and think about what had to happen to do this, it's jaw dropping, the fact that we paid for this is intolerable.







SydneyBridge

8,636 posts

159 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
The PO would not disclose any techincal info about Horizon, error logs etc, so it was completly impossible for a SPM to defend themselves. It was just assumed they were guilty.

As soon as it was known that Fujitsu could make 'adjustments' every conviction was unsafe, in 2010 when Avb does not recall the email

Wonder what we have today, Mr Beer must have saved something good...

Bonefish Blues

26,824 posts

224 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
SydneyBridge said:
The PO would not disclose any techincal info about Horizon, error logs etc, so it was completly impossible for a SPM to defend themselves. It was just assumed they were guilty.

As soon as it was known that Fujitsu could make 'adjustments' every conviction was unsafe, in 2010 when Avb does not recall the email

Wonder what we have today, Mr Beer must have saved something good...
Did she mention that yesterday? scratchchin

dmsims

6,539 posts

268 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
Don't forget to add the duties of an expert witness and failure to disclose

siremoon said:
However the assumption of computer infallibility is underpinned by the expectation that technical experts on a given system will not perjure themselves when asked under oath about any suspected defects.

TwinKam

2,993 posts

96 months

Friday 26th April
quotequote all
Bonefish Blues said:
e600 said:
Having watched KC Beers questioning of VDB, by her own admission she is guilty of PCOJ in the previous trials.

Does anyone know what the next phase of this exercise will be, ie post inquiry results, does CPS make a decision
Police have to put charges to the CPS & the CPS decides whether the prosecution can proceed.

Not sure I have heard any statements from the police on this - certainly not in the recent past?
In answer to this, and tele_lover's question earlier, anyone can bring a private prosecution. Indeed, Alan Bates has stated that if the 'system' doesn't bring action against the key players, he will, happily crowd-funded by half the population I'll wager!