Mick Mannock and James McCudden AIr Aces - Timewatch
Discussion
cardigankid said:
It saddens me to see what has been done with the legacy these great men died for.
Cheer up! Where's your fighting spirit? 
Something like 10-15% of people living here at the start of WW1 were living at subsistance level, with another 10% or so living below subsistance. Most of the world may have been coloured pink, but it was a very tough time for the working class at the start of the 20th century. I'm glad I live in 2009!
Alexj800 said:
cardigankid said:
It saddens me to see what has been done with the legacy these great men died for.
Cheer up! Where's your fighting spirit? Something like 10-15% of people living here at the start of WW1 were living at subsistance level, with another 10% or so living below subsistance. Most of the world may have been coloured pink, but it was a very tough time for the working class at the start of the 20th century. I'm glad I live in 2009!
Mannock was quite an odd character in lots of ways. Although termed a "British" hero and a recipient of numerous bravery awards for fighting for "King and country" (including a posthumous VC), he was a staunch Irish nationalist and a firm believer and advocate of Irish home rule. If he had survived the war, I reckon that he would have gone into politics, either as a Labour party candidate in British elections or maybe even as a member of Sinn Fein.
We'll never know.
Simpo Two said:
The other great ace was Albert Ball, who was brought down by ground fire (as indeed was Richtofen).
Saw it this morning on Sky+ (SWMBO had bagged the telly for Dancing On Ice
).IIRC from an earlier Timewatch(?) Richtofen also broke his golden rule of not following down a victim with the same ultimate result.
Hope they get permission to exhume the unknown serviceman and perhaps get a DNA match with Mannock's family.
Alexj800 said:
cardigankid said:
It saddens me to see what has been done with the legacy these great men died for.
Cheer up! Where's your fighting spirit? Something like 10-15% of people living here at the start of WW1 were living at subsistance level, with another 10% or so living below subsistance. Most of the world may have been coloured pink, but it was a very tough time for the working class at the start of the 20th century. I'm glad I live in 2009!
Don't fall into the trap of thinkling that these are the "worst times".
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
cardigankid said:
Alexj800 said:
cardigankid said:
It saddens me to see what has been done with the legacy these great men died for.
Cheer up! Where's your fighting spirit? Something like 10-15% of people living here at the start of WW1 were living at subsistance level, with another 10% or so living below subsistance. Most of the world may have been coloured pink, but it was a very tough time for the working class at the start of the 20th century. I'm glad I live in 2009!
Eric Mc said:
Don't fall into the trap of thinkling that these are the "worst times".
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
I expect that what Mannock regarded as socialist or anti establishment in 1914 is a long long way from what passes for socialism these days. There is or was a very good biography of him which I must have read about 30 years ago and must try and find again. However, that is beside the point, which is exactly what you said - he was prepared to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life, as were many many others.There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
Would you get the same reaction today? No, and rightly so, because you would likely find yourself fighting in a war which has nothing to do with British life but a lot to do with politician's careers and obscure deals between Washington and Downing Street. I see that the Chinese punish tax evasion with a bullet in the head. We are maybe not quite at that point in the UK yet, where of course the biggest tax evaders are the government's friends, but did people like Mannock think they were protecting a country where if you want to go abroad you have to submit an itinerary to the authorities?
As I said, best not start me - it isn't the right place.
You despair too much!
I expect half the chaps joining up in WW1 were doing it out of patriotism and the other half because they thought army life would be better than the misery of living back home.
I am proud of this country I live in, but I'm sure that human beings will give up living in tribes one day anyway.
Now I'm going outside to enjoy the sunshine of this green and pleasant land!
I expect half the chaps joining up in WW1 were doing it out of patriotism and the other half because they thought army life would be better than the misery of living back home.
I am proud of this country I live in, but I'm sure that human beings will give up living in tribes one day anyway.
Now I'm going outside to enjoy the sunshine of this green and pleasant land!
Yes, fascinating stuff.
Can you imagine the rationale behind the dictat not to have parachutes on board?
Flying at crazy altitude minus oxygen?
The photo of The Red Baron stood smiling, shoulder to shoulder with his downed adversary: a sort of noble detente when face to face against a backdrop of merciless slaughter.
Sobering in the extreme.
Can you imagine the rationale behind the dictat not to have parachutes on board?
Flying at crazy altitude minus oxygen?
The photo of The Red Baron stood smiling, shoulder to shoulder with his downed adversary: a sort of noble detente when face to face against a backdrop of merciless slaughter.
Sobering in the extreme.
cardigankid said:
More than you I suspect.
Possibly, possibly not, either way your attitude makes you a fool.The individual citizen/subject of Great Britain has more real freedom now than at any other time in history.
I am free to do things now that never would have been possible in the past and that is from an increase in economic prosperity and a change in political and social attitudes towards the enabling of society in general rather than the preservation of an elite.
To assert we have far less freedom now is a nonsense.
Unless of course you are just trying to make a spurious political rant that Labour have taken away all our freedoms.
derestrictor said:
Yes, fascinating stuff.
Can you imagine the rationale behind the dictat not to have parachutes on board?
Flying at crazy altitude minus oxygen?
The photo of The Red Baron stood smiling, shoulder to shoulder with his downed adversary: a sort of noble detente when face to face against a backdrop of merciless slaughter.
Sobering in the extreme.
Honour and glory, honour and glory. And shame. The military notions of honour, glory and shame and their reflection back into civilian life were much more prevalent in that society than it is today. Cowardice and connotations of "weak chaps", especially with a more rigorous class structure in place were real fears. Consequently the notion that if these chaps were given parachutes it might encourage them to be not so brave was at the forefront of their minds.Can you imagine the rationale behind the dictat not to have parachutes on board?
Flying at crazy altitude minus oxygen?
The photo of The Red Baron stood smiling, shoulder to shoulder with his downed adversary: a sort of noble detente when face to face against a backdrop of merciless slaughter.
Sobering in the extreme.
It is a fascinating topic and was actually the basis for my thesis at Uni
derestrictor said:
Yes, fascinating stuff.
Can you imagine the rationale behind the dictat not to have parachutes on board?
Flying at crazy altitude minus oxygen?
The photo of The Red Baron stood smiling, shoulder to shoulder with his downed adversary: a sort of noble detente when face to face against a backdrop of merciless slaughter.
Sobering in the extreme.
Although it is commonly pointed out that parachutes "weren't allowed" in the RFC and fledgling RAF, you have to remember that compact stowable parachutes did not make their appearance untl the last few months of the war. Static line parachutes had been in use since the beginning of the war but they were totally impractical for use in the aeroplanes available between 1914 and the end of 1916. They were almost exclusibvely used by crewmen of thethered observation balloons. The Imperial German Air Service began issuing parachutes to their aeroplane pilots from the Spring of 1918. Can you imagine the rationale behind the dictat not to have parachutes on board?
Flying at crazy altitude minus oxygen?
The photo of The Red Baron stood smiling, shoulder to shoulder with his downed adversary: a sort of noble detente when face to face against a backdrop of merciless slaughter.
Sobering in the extreme.
The RFC/RAF didn't get around to issuing their version of the stowable parachute until after the war had ended. This was partly down to prejudice but was as much to the fact that British military aviation was in a bit of turmoil at that time as the RFC and RNAS were in the process of merging to form the RAF.
Edited by Eric Mc on Tuesday 24th March 15:18
That's certainly encouraging.
I know we've had crackers like Breaker Morant and Gallipoli which have been superb in their own right but a 'sweeping time canvas' approach, perhaps very much akin to BoB might offer some worthwhile historical insights to keep the memories alive.
Allingham & Co., sadly, have had remarkable innings...
I know we've had crackers like Breaker Morant and Gallipoli which have been superb in their own right but a 'sweeping time canvas' approach, perhaps very much akin to BoB might offer some worthwhile historical insights to keep the memories alive.
Allingham & Co., sadly, have had remarkable innings...
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