Mick Mannock and James McCudden AIr Aces - Timewatch
Discussion
cardigankid said:
Eric Mc said:
Don't fall into the trap of thinkling that these are the "worst times".
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
I have often come to the conclusion that the view of these men going off to fight nobly for King & Country is made up sentimentalism. On the contrary, it was often obvious from a number of accounts I have read that if they had volunteered (rather than being drafted) it was probably more because it was better than what they had at home, knew what to expect (going into WW2 from WW1 so a defined existence, particularly if they found it hard to adjust to life after WW1), etc; or for some it was just a bloody good excuse for a bit of mischief. I have read accounts from some soldiers who just thought, yeah let's have a go at that and get away form this place for a while.... There are a strain of British working class fellas (which the fighting blokes were) who really do and always have put value in hard work and effort and whether that was down t'pit, in a factory or shooting at Jerry it didn't really make much difference to most of them. They just wanted the chance to show themselves off.
If it was me and we had a war now that I was obliged to fight in I really don't think I would give much thought to Queen & Country but if you handed me the controls of the Eurofighter and told me to get ballistic with the enemy
I'd think "f
k yeah, I'm in!". Edited by Buffalo on Wednesday 25th March 08:57
Eric Mc said:
Funk Odyssey said:
Eric Mc said:
majordad said:
I watched the programme and it was vwry good. I live in Cork and did not know about Mannock, do you know where he was from or lived in Cork. 20 miles north of Cork City in the town of Fermoy there was an Irish Army home camp to a cavalry squadern. The old name of the camp was the aerodrome, and the hangers are still there. I believe the RFC were there prior to 1922 when England pulled out of Ireland.
I only discovered Mannock's Irish connections a couple of years ago - although I'd known about him being an ace since I was a kid.In fact, the number of Irish air aces is quite amazing. There is another chap called George McElroy who shot down over 40 German aircraft in WW1 and he was from Dublin.
He wass killed in action in 1942 so he didn't have a post war life to cope with. I think you are mixing him up with someone else.
These Irish aces are virtually unknown in their homeland and maybe it's about time that some sort of recognition of their achievements was recorded in their native land.
In WW2 there was Brendan "Paddy" Finucane, also from Dublin, who shot down over 30 German aircraft. He IS recognised in Ireland now and there is a small memorial garden to him at the Irish Air Corp's HQ at Baldonnell.
Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 25th March 08:50
I guess I must be!
Buffalo said:
cardigankid said:
Eric Mc said:
Don't fall into the trap of thinkling that these are the "worst times".
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
There was plenty wrong with British society in the lead up to WW1. I think, if you could have had a chat with Mannock in 1914, you would have heard a diatribe against the class system and oppression of the Irish. However, despite his anti-establishment views, he was still willing to put his life on the line for the fundamentals of British life.
I have often come to the conclusion that the view of these men going off to fight nobly for King & Country is made up sentimentalism. On the contrary, it was often obvious from a number of accounts I have read that if they had volunteered (rather than being drafted) it was probably more because it was better than what they had at home, knew what to expect (going into WW2 from WW1 so a defined existence, particularly if they found it hard to adjust to life after WW1), etc; or for some it was just a bloody good excuse for a bit of mischief. I have read accounts from some soldiers who just thought, yeah let's have a go at that and get away form this place for a while.... There are a strain of British working class fellas (which the fighting blokes were) who really do and always have put value in hard work and effort and whether that was down t'pit, in a factory or shooting at Jerry it didn't really make much difference to most of them. They just wanted the chance to show themselves off.
If it was me and we had a war now that I was obliged to fight in I really don't think I would give much thought to Queen & Country but if you handed me the controls of the Eurofighter and told me to get ballistic with the enemy
I'd think "fk yeah, I'm in!". Edited by Buffalo on Wednesday 25th March 08:57
Mannock was fighting for democracy, I have no doubt about it, but he was also carrying out a personal grudge against Gerrmany and her allies - particularly because of the appalling treatment he had received at the hands of the Turks following his incarceration as an internee in 1914.
Eric Mc said:
EVERY Irishman who fought in WW1 WAS a volunteer. There was no conscription in Ireland (conscription was introduced in Great Britain in 1916 but for political reasons, was not introduced in Ireland).
Mannock was fighting for democracy, I have no doubt about it, but he was also carrying out a personal grudge against Gerrmany and her allies - particularly because of the appalling treatment he had received at the hands of the Turks following his incarceration as an internee in 1914.
I suppose personal grudges are another reason...Mannock was fighting for democracy, I have no doubt about it, but he was also carrying out a personal grudge against Gerrmany and her allies - particularly because of the appalling treatment he had received at the hands of the Turks following his incarceration as an internee in 1914.
I don't doubt that some soldiers did go to war (and continue to do so) because they believe that "our" belief of what is right is more agreeable than "theirs". And I'm not making light of this either.
In terms of WW2 (which I have always read more of) most of what i read seems to suggest that the belief of 'doing right against Germany' came slightly later in the war, after bombing of British cities and after some snazzy feel good propaganda (as needed) by the British Gov't. In the earlier stages, before it was apparent just what was going on, many of the accounts split the population in to "no way, I'm not going over there for that" and "yeah, sounds like a laugh, be 'ome by Christmas with a German 'elmet, aye gov'nor". This is comparable to many opinions of the wars that are going on today around the globe between those signed-up and those not. Most of us not signed-up probably associate little importance to the deployment of troops there as we believe it to be the whim of a corrupted government.
The British Army has a history of 'press-ganging' fellas into the army, so they must have managed to make the life seem appealing somehow (regular food, pay, clothes, acts of heroism, etc). Did this go on up to WW1?
At the onset of war in August 1914, the recruiting stations were totally overwhelmed by the hundreds of thousands of men who rushed to volunteer to join up. There is absolutely no doubt that the vast majority of these did so out of a strong sense of patriotism and nationalistic fervour. Others did so because their "pals" were doing it and they didn't want to be left out. There was also a strong sense of "doing one's duty" in British men (and boys) of that era so that would have encouraged many to join up. No doubt, much of this enthusiasm was misguided.
However, for the first two years of the conflict, volunteer recruitment was no problem. In fact, as I have indicated in my opening sentence, the Army had a real problem coping with the sheer numbers turning up at the recruiting offices.
By the middle of 1916 it was apparent that the rush of volunteers had dried up. News of the conditions at the front and the sheer awfullness of what was going on meant that fervour was damping down. It was at this stage in the war that conscription was instigated.
As I also mentioned earlier, recruiting in Ireland was carried out in a different manner because of the delicate political situation. Despite that, over 750,000 Irishmen from all over the island joined up totally voluntarilly.
By 1918, with the war bogged down, the supply of Irish volunteers now dried up (no doubt exacerbated by the Easter Rising of 1916 and the execution of its leaders). It was announced that conscriptrion wouold be brought in for Ireland too in 1918. Luckilly for the Irish, the war ended beforte this could be put in motion.
However, for the first two years of the conflict, volunteer recruitment was no problem. In fact, as I have indicated in my opening sentence, the Army had a real problem coping with the sheer numbers turning up at the recruiting offices.
By the middle of 1916 it was apparent that the rush of volunteers had dried up. News of the conditions at the front and the sheer awfullness of what was going on meant that fervour was damping down. It was at this stage in the war that conscription was instigated.
As I also mentioned earlier, recruiting in Ireland was carried out in a different manner because of the delicate political situation. Despite that, over 750,000 Irishmen from all over the island joined up totally voluntarilly.
By 1918, with the war bogged down, the supply of Irish volunteers now dried up (no doubt exacerbated by the Easter Rising of 1916 and the execution of its leaders). It was announced that conscriptrion wouold be brought in for Ireland too in 1918. Luckilly for the Irish, the war ended beforte this could be put in motion.
He was one of the SAS chaps, wasn't he. A total psycho - ideally suited for his "behind the lines " activities in the Desert but totally unsuited for civvie life afterwards.
Most flightcrew were much more sensitive and "normal" - mainly because the "killing" they performed was remote and caused less of an impact on their personalties. It was fear of "getting the chop" which tended to screw them up.
Most flightcrew were much more sensitive and "normal" - mainly because the "killing" they performed was remote and caused less of an impact on their personalties. It was fear of "getting the chop" which tended to screw them up.
Edited by Eric Mc on Wednesday 25th March 16:03
Eric Mc said:
At the onset of war in August 1914, the recruiting stations were totally overwhelmed by the hundreds of thousands of men who rushed to volunteer to join up. There is absolutely no doubt that the vast majority of these did so out of a strong sense of patriotism and nationalistic fervour. Others did so because their "pals" were doing it and they didn't want to be left out. There was also a strong sense of "doing one's duty" in British men (and boys) of that era so that would have encouraged many to join up. No doubt, much of this enthusiasm was misguided.
However, for the first two years of the conflict, volunteer recruitment was no problem. In fact, as I have indicated in my opening sentence, the Army had a real problem coping with the sheer numbers turning up at the recruiting offices.
By the middle of 1916 it was apparent that the rush of volunteers had dried up. News of the conditions at the front and the sheer awfullness of what was going on meant that fervour was damping down. It was at this stage in the war that conscription was instigated.
As I also mentioned earlier, recruiting in Ireland was carried out in a different manner because of the delicate political situation. Despite that, over 750,000 Irishmen from all over the island joined up totally voluntarilly.
By 1918, with the war bogged down, the supply of Irish volunteers now dried up (no doubt exacerbated by the Easter Rising of 1916 and the execution of its leaders). It was announced that conscriptrion wouold be brought in for Ireland too in 1918. Luckilly for the Irish, the war ended beforte this could be put in motion.
I suspect that the supply of volunteers, both in Britain and in Ireland dried up in just the way it always does, the best go first. It is only a surprise that it lasted as long as it did.However, for the first two years of the conflict, volunteer recruitment was no problem. In fact, as I have indicated in my opening sentence, the Army had a real problem coping with the sheer numbers turning up at the recruiting offices.
By the middle of 1916 it was apparent that the rush of volunteers had dried up. News of the conditions at the front and the sheer awfullness of what was going on meant that fervour was damping down. It was at this stage in the war that conscription was instigated.
As I also mentioned earlier, recruiting in Ireland was carried out in a different manner because of the delicate political situation. Despite that, over 750,000 Irishmen from all over the island joined up totally voluntarilly.
By 1918, with the war bogged down, the supply of Irish volunteers now dried up (no doubt exacerbated by the Easter Rising of 1916 and the execution of its leaders). It was announced that conscriptrion wouold be brought in for Ireland too in 1918. Luckilly for the Irish, the war ended beforte this could be put in motion.
Which I think reflects the frevour of "patriotism" that had existed all through the Victorian and Edwardian eras.
Ireland (as always) was a bit different. The Irish were encouraged to join up for different reasons. Ulster Unionists were peddled the "King and Country" line. Men from the rest of the country were told that they were fighting for a small Catholic country just like Ireland (i.e. Belgian) or were encouraged to "join an Irish regiment" or they were encouraged to "Avenge the Lusitania". There are some interesting WW1 posters out there.
Also, the leader of the Irish Party, John Redmond, came out in favour of Ireland putting its weight into the war effort - despite the fact that the Irish Party had been fighting for Home Rule for decades.
Ireland (as always) was a bit different. The Irish were encouraged to join up for different reasons. Ulster Unionists were peddled the "King and Country" line. Men from the rest of the country were told that they were fighting for a small Catholic country just like Ireland (i.e. Belgian) or were encouraged to "join an Irish regiment" or they were encouraged to "Avenge the Lusitania". There are some interesting WW1 posters out there.
Also, the leader of the Irish Party, John Redmond, came out in favour of Ireland putting its weight into the war effort - despite the fact that the Irish Party had been fighting for Home Rule for decades.
Buffalo said:
I don't doubt that some soldiers did go to war (and continue to do so) because they believe that "our" belief of what is right is more agreeable than "theirs". And I'm not making light of this either.
In terms of WW2 (which I have always read more of) most of what i read seems to suggest that the belief of 'doing right against Germany' came slightly later in the war, after bombing of British cities and after some snazzy feel good propaganda (as needed) by the British Gov't. In the earlier stages, before it was apparent just what was going on, many of the accounts split the population in to "no way, I'm not going over there for that" and "yeah, sounds like a laugh, be 'ome by Christmas with a German 'elmet, aye gov'nor". This is comparable to many opinions of the wars that are going on today around the globe between those signed-up and those not. Most of us not signed-up probably associate little importance to the deployment of troops there as we believe it to be the whim of a corrupted government.
The British Army has a history of 'press-ganging' fellas into the army, so they must have managed to make the life seem appealing somehow (regular food, pay, clothes, acts of heroism, etc). Did this go on up to WW1?
In terms of WW2 (which I have always read more of) most of what i read seems to suggest that the belief of 'doing right against Germany' came slightly later in the war, after bombing of British cities and after some snazzy feel good propaganda (as needed) by the British Gov't. In the earlier stages, before it was apparent just what was going on, many of the accounts split the population in to "no way, I'm not going over there for that" and "yeah, sounds like a laugh, be 'ome by Christmas with a German 'elmet, aye gov'nor". This is comparable to many opinions of the wars that are going on today around the globe between those signed-up and those not. Most of us not signed-up probably associate little importance to the deployment of troops there as we believe it to be the whim of a corrupted government.
The British Army has a history of 'press-ganging' fellas into the army, so they must have managed to make the life seem appealing somehow (regular food, pay, clothes, acts of heroism, etc). Did this go on up to WW1?
Eric Mc said:
At the onset of war in August 1914, the recruiting stations were totally overwhelmed by the hundreds of thousands of men who rushed to volunteer to join up. There is absolutely no doubt that the vast majority of these did so out of a strong sense of patriotism and nationalistic fervour. Others did so because their "pals" were doing it and they didn't want to be left out. There was also a strong sense of "doing one's duty" in British men (and boys) of that era so that would have encouraged many to join up. No doubt, much of this enthusiasm was misguided.
However, for the first two years of the conflict, volunteer recruitment was no problem. In fact, as I have indicated in my opening sentence, the Army had a real problem coping with the sheer numbers turning up at the recruiting offices.
I'm reminded of a scene in Black Watch where they flashback to a Scottish recruitment drive in 1914. It covers most of the factors you mentioned and the conveys the attitudes of times extremely well I think. It also shows that not much has really changed either. The scene begins at 9:20 in Black Watch (Part 3) and continues into Part 4. In fact I'd recommend you watch the whole play (it's also available on DVD now) if you haven't seen it as it's quite possibly the best play I've ever seen.However, for the first two years of the conflict, volunteer recruitment was no problem. In fact, as I have indicated in my opening sentence, the Army had a real problem coping with the sheer numbers turning up at the recruiting offices.
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