Dream School - Jamie Oliver
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
As I said, schlock TV.
I am tiring of the whole trend in TV to have "celebrities" of various sorts stepping in to show how things should be done or might be done. It is downright insulting to those who carry out these jobs as professionals
Panorama's programme on the use of the ex-military in education on Monday was far more revealing - and serious, than this load of old cobblers.
well said I am tiring of the whole trend in TV to have "celebrities" of various sorts stepping in to show how things should be done or might be done. It is downright insulting to those who carry out these jobs as professionals
Panorama's programme on the use of the ex-military in education on Monday was far more revealing - and serious, than this load of old cobblers.
and frankly the whole lot of them should be put into a CCF type situation, Starkey had a good point these students should not be mollycoddled, all this 'repsect' rubbish drives me mental they show zero 'respect' for the teachers fom the first second why should the teachers 'respect' them, what a load of horses
tI thought the lad who we saw at home eating dinner with his parents after sailing with Ellen Macarthur was interesting.
He appeared to have an incredibly stable and supportive background yet still he 'failed' at school. I was firmly in the camp that the home life was normally the opposite in these cases but this bucked that theory from my sheltered life.
He appeared to have an incredibly stable and supportive background yet still he 'failed' at school. I was firmly in the camp that the home life was normally the opposite in these cases but this bucked that theory from my sheltered life.
chippy17 said:
NiceCupOfTea said:
No excuse for personal attacks on pupils. As a teacher you have to be above retaliatory comments, let alone "first strikes" even if they are behaving like little stes! Quite apart from that, if you rise to them you have lost them. They have a wedge and will keep driving it in until you lose it.
He would be in some very hot water if he acted like that in a real school.
but he was fat tes! Quite apart from that, if you rise to them you have lost them. They have a wedge and will keep driving it in until you lose it.He would be in some very hot water if he acted like that in a real school.
ts. And the kid wasnt just a bit over weight. He was a round tub of useless lard.
bull996 said:
My god that bleach blonde girl is hot!!!
Glad it wasnt just me that thought that. Kateg28 said:
I thought the lad who we saw at home eating dinner with his parents after sailing with Ellen Macarthur was interesting.
He appeared to have an incredibly stable and supportive background yet still he 'failed' at school. I was firmly in the camp that the home life was normally the opposite in these cases but this bucked that theory from my sheltered life.
His mother seemed spaced out and not exactly the sharpest tool in the box while dad seemed much more 'academic'.He appeared to have an incredibly stable and supportive background yet still he 'failed' at school. I was firmly in the camp that the home life was normally the opposite in these cases but this bucked that theory from my sheltered life.
I suspeect that dad tried to discipline the lad when younger and mum defended 'the poor lad' and the child took advantage of the opportunity to divide and conquer.
I saw this with one of my brother's children.
Children will, by their very nature, push boundaries to see how much they can get away with and having suceeded once it becomes acceptable beahviour.
If those children had been expected to behave with repect at home, and it was the norm, they would initially behave with respect at school until the point they learned that, if it were the case, they could get away without consequence with behaving differently.
Eric Mc said:
As I said, schlock TV.
I am tiring of the whole trend in TV to have "celebrities" of various sorts stepping in to show how things should be done or might be done. It is downright insulting to those who carry out these jobs as professionals
I agree - but I am hoping (perhaps naively) that if given enough rope...I am tiring of the whole trend in TV to have "celebrities" of various sorts stepping in to show how things should be done or might be done. It is downright insulting to those who carry out these jobs as professionals
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm not talking about pandering to them - I am talking about a personal attack on one of the pupils (whether provoked or not). You may think that he had a point, but it's totally inappropriate. As a teacher you are in a position of responsibility and above these things. If you sink to their level any respect they have for you will be gone in an instant.I agree that the motives of the programme are questionable - undoubtedly some are there for their 15 minutes of fame (asked about their ambitions they seemed to identify largely with people who had lots of money but not necessarily any talent or particular qualities (Katie Pryce for example)). Hopefully some are there with a genuine interest in bettering themselves, in which case they are to be commended. There are plenty of kids who realise too late that they are crashing and burning, and a second chance can be the difference between abject failure and actually achieving something in their life.
"If they don't want to learn, kick them out" - a very simplistic view of it. Firstly, it's not that simple. There can be many reasons for disruptive pupils - boredom, attention seeking, finding the work too easy, peer pressure. Expulsion is going to fail some of them big time and increase their disdain for authority and education. Also, where do you kick them out to? What happens when they leave school? "If they get thrown out that's their problem" - nope, it's all of ours, because they're more than likely going to go on to live off the state for the next 60+ years. Resources and investment put into improving the status quo will ultimately benefit everybody.
I am no bleeding heart liberal - doubtless the kids need to understand that respect is earned, and in many of these cases a lot of the blame can be laid firmly at the doorstep of poor parenting - but it's counter-productive just to write off kids who don't initially seem switched on. The teacher's job is to engage the students. It would be lovely if they were all sitting their keen to learn and soak up your pearls of wisdom, but that's not the way of the world, and why teaching is so much more than "knowing your subject".
I don't have the answers and I'm not a classroom teacher. It's not something I can do, but I have the utmost respect for good teachers. It's an extremely difficult and important job often done under very challenging circumstances.
I think the real question is how can you get the kids to understand the benefits of education now? They need to be engaged in some way. (Of course the need the basic social skills which need to be instilled by good parenting.) Each kid is different and needs to be reached in a different way. But how to do that in a classroom of 30 kids when you have a syllabus to get through? There's the challenge.
Eric Mc said:
Exactly. The only motive for TV like this is to put on a "show". The interests of the children come way down the scale.
It's a form of exploitation which I find very distateful.
How are they being exploited?It's a form of exploitation which I find very distateful.
They're old enough to know what they're doing and haven't been forced onto the show. They are getting an opportunity 99% of dropouts don't. It's up to them what they do with it.
NiceCupOfTea said:
Eric Mc said:
Exactly. The only motive for TV like this is to put on a "show". The interests of the children come way down the scale.
It's a form of exploitation which I find very distateful.
How are they being exploited?It's a form of exploitation which I find very distateful.
They're old enough to know what they're doing and haven't been forced onto the show. They are getting an opportunity 99% of dropouts don't. It's up to them what they do with it.
I am sure they or their parents are being remunerated in some way - but exploitation is not just about money.
Prostitutes are paid - but they are also exploited.
I just can't stand this sort of TV.
Eric Mc said:
NiceCupOfTea said:
Eric Mc said:
Exactly. The only motive for TV like this is to put on a "show". The interests of the children come way down the scale.
It's a form of exploitation which I find very distateful.
How are they being exploited?It's a form of exploitation which I find very distateful.
They're old enough to know what they're doing and haven't been forced onto the show. They are getting an opportunity 99% of dropouts don't. It's up to them what they do with it.
I am sure they or their parents are being remunerated in some way - but exploitation is not just about money.
Prostitutes are paid - but they are also exploited.
I just can't stand this sort of TV.
NiceCupOfTea said:
I'm not talking about pandering to them - I am talking about a personal attack on one of the pupils (whether provoked or not). You may think that he had a point, but it's totally inappropriate. As a teacher you are in a position of responsibility and above these things. If you sink to their level any respect they have for you will be gone in an instant.
I agree that the motives of the programme are questionable - undoubtedly some are there for their 15 minutes of fame (asked about their ambitions they seemed to identify largely with people who had lots of money but not necessarily any talent or particular qualities (Katie Pryce for example)). Hopefully some are there with a genuine interest in bettering themselves, in which case they are to be commended. There are plenty of kids who realise too late that they are crashing and burning, and a second chance can be the difference between abject failure and actually achieving something in their life.
"If they don't want to learn, kick them out" - a very simplistic view of it. Firstly, it's not that simple. There can be many reasons for disruptive pupils - boredom, attention seeking, finding the work too easy, peer pressure. Expulsion is going to fail some of them big time and increase their disdain for authority and education. Also, where do you kick them out to? What happens when they leave school? "If they get thrown out that's their problem" - nope, it's all of ours, because they're more than likely going to go on to live off the state for the next 60+ years. Resources and investment put into improving the status quo will ultimately benefit everybody.
I am no bleeding heart liberal - doubtless the kids need to understand that respect is earned, and in many of these cases a lot of the blame can be laid firmly at the doorstep of poor parenting - but it's counter-productive just to write off kids who don't initially seem switched on. The teacher's job is to engage the students. It would be lovely if they were all sitting their keen to learn and soak up your pearls of wisdom, but that's not the way of the world, and why teaching is so much more than "knowing your subject".
I don't have the answers and I'm not a classroom teacher. It's not something I can do, but I have the utmost respect for good teachers. It's an extremely difficult and important job often done under very challenging circumstances.
I think the real question is how can you get the kids to understand the benefits of education now? They need to be engaged in some way. (Of course the need the basic social skills which need to be instilled by good parenting.) Each kid is different and needs to be reached in a different way. But how to do that in a classroom of 30 kids when you have a syllabus to get through? There's the challenge.
this: 'dare I say anything derogatory in case I hurt their feelings' really has gone too far, I remember teachers saying all kinds of things but it was meant to sort me out, if we told more fat kids they are fat and should do some exercise perhaps we wouldn't have such a weight problem in this countryI agree that the motives of the programme are questionable - undoubtedly some are there for their 15 minutes of fame (asked about their ambitions they seemed to identify largely with people who had lots of money but not necessarily any talent or particular qualities (Katie Pryce for example)). Hopefully some are there with a genuine interest in bettering themselves, in which case they are to be commended. There are plenty of kids who realise too late that they are crashing and burning, and a second chance can be the difference between abject failure and actually achieving something in their life.
"If they don't want to learn, kick them out" - a very simplistic view of it. Firstly, it's not that simple. There can be many reasons for disruptive pupils - boredom, attention seeking, finding the work too easy, peer pressure. Expulsion is going to fail some of them big time and increase their disdain for authority and education. Also, where do you kick them out to? What happens when they leave school? "If they get thrown out that's their problem" - nope, it's all of ours, because they're more than likely going to go on to live off the state for the next 60+ years. Resources and investment put into improving the status quo will ultimately benefit everybody.
I am no bleeding heart liberal - doubtless the kids need to understand that respect is earned, and in many of these cases a lot of the blame can be laid firmly at the doorstep of poor parenting - but it's counter-productive just to write off kids who don't initially seem switched on. The teacher's job is to engage the students. It would be lovely if they were all sitting their keen to learn and soak up your pearls of wisdom, but that's not the way of the world, and why teaching is so much more than "knowing your subject".
I don't have the answers and I'm not a classroom teacher. It's not something I can do, but I have the utmost respect for good teachers. It's an extremely difficult and important job often done under very challenging circumstances.
I think the real question is how can you get the kids to understand the benefits of education now? They need to be engaged in some way. (Of course the need the basic social skills which need to be instilled by good parenting.) Each kid is different and needs to be reached in a different way. But how to do that in a classroom of 30 kids when you have a syllabus to get through? There's the challenge.
I think too much emphasis is put on making the children understand, they are children for crying out loud they do not have to understand everything sometimes they just have to do as they are told, a private does not question his sergeant about every order it just gets done...
I am not saying kick them out and giver up on them I agree this is the wrong this to do but pandering just makes it worse, this liberal namby pamby rubbish has a lot to answer for
Kateg28 said:
I thought the lad who we saw at home eating dinner with his parents after sailing with Ellen Macarthur was interesting.
He appeared to have an incredibly stable and supportive background yet still he 'failed' at school. I was firmly in the camp that the home life was normally the opposite in these cases but this bucked that theory from my sheltered life.
I was thinking the same. The way I saw it was that his parents were the very liberal type, letting him swear, smoke and basically allowing him to do as he pleased rather than setting any boundaries.He appeared to have an incredibly stable and supportive background yet still he 'failed' at school. I was firmly in the camp that the home life was normally the opposite in these cases but this bucked that theory from my sheltered life.
Couple that with the fact that he went to school in inner city London and its hardly surprising that he ended up bumming out.
It was kind of eye opening because the kid reminded me of myself and if my mum wasn't such a high and mighty moral queen then maybe I would have turned out the same. Instead I just got two years of intense 'catching up' when I became independent
chippy17 said:
this: 'dare I say anything derogatory in case I hurt their feelings' really has gone too far, I remember teachers saying all kinds of things but it was meant to sort me out, if we told more fat kids they are fat and should do some exercise perhaps we wouldn't have such a weight problem in this country
I think too much emphasis is put on making the children understand, they are children for crying out loud they do not have to understand everything sometimes they just have to do as they are told, a private does not question his sergeant about every order it just gets done...
I am not saying kick them out and giver up on them I agree this is the wrong this to do but pandering just makes it worse, this liberal namby pamby rubbish has a lot to answer for
As I said: I am not talking about pandering to them. In this case I am talking about the chap's total failure to connect with the kids on their level. If you want to engage the kids, you have to do this. If he tried that on in a lecture theatre or the workplace I think it would still be considered out of place. You don't call somebody you have just met fat whether they are or not! It might be true, but it's rude and it doesn't engender respect for you. I lost a lot of respect for David Starkey at that exact moment!I think too much emphasis is put on making the children understand, they are children for crying out loud they do not have to understand everything sometimes they just have to do as they are told, a private does not question his sergeant about every order it just gets done...
I am not saying kick them out and giver up on them I agree this is the wrong this to do but pandering just makes it worse, this liberal namby pamby rubbish has a lot to answer for
How do you propose making the kids "do as they are told"? Force? Corporal punishment? If the kids already have no respect for authority this will just perpetuate it, and it will continue through their kids. However, if you can reach them somehow... Carrot rather than stick approach.
Not sure what "liberal namby pamby rubbish" you are referring to. I'd say a policy of not verbally abusing students is a fairly good one, but what do I know?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm not sure that corporal punishment is the answer, but I agree that there need to be sanctions and consequences for actions.As you (or is it Soovy?) are so fond of saying, this is the L'Oreal Generation - they're worth it. They know their rights but not their obligations. I'm afraid to say that I think most of this starts at home. Their parents don't instill discipline and respect and are more to likely charge into school wanting to tear a teacher apart rather than discipline their child for some wrongdoing.
It is a sad state of affairs.
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