Bitcoins?

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Discussion

budgie smuggler

5,392 posts

160 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Too Late said:
I am interested in hosw the HMRC can chase people.

Im not too worried with my 0.2 bitcoin in my wallet but interested in how they can trace the untraceable....
Presumably they will get your details from the exchange?

Murph7355

37,760 posts

257 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Too Late said:
jurbie said:
HMRC has a fairly clear position on Bitcoin and it seems they are actively chasing people who disregard their responsibilities so I don't see the UK government doing anything anytime soon when you consider that lots of people who have never had to consider CGT before are suddenly being swept up in it. In the short term there could be a nice gain for the government.

The only time they'll need to do something is if the thing does collapse and the media fills up with people demanding to know why the government let them spend their own money in such a reckless way because obviously that will be entirely the governments fault. It will be too late by then but certainly could hamper any recovery.
I am interested in hosw the HMRC can chase people.

Im not too worried with my 0.2 bitcoin in my wallet but interested in how they can trace the untraceable....
And that's where the fun starts.

How are people going to declare their capital gains? How many are even realising these gains?

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Too Late said:
I am interested in hosw the HMRC can chase people.
Get payment details from the exchanges to UK bank accounts?

hyphen

26,262 posts

91 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Too Late said:
...interested in how they can trace the untraceable....
It will take stupidity/a tip off/leak/unrelated investigation uncovering this one too (unless you registered with a normal exchange and gave them your details).

No different to most other HMRC successes I guess.

rxe

6,700 posts

104 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Too Late said:
I am interested in hosw the HMRC can chase people.

Im not too worried with my 0.2 bitcoin in my wallet but interested in how they can trace the untraceable....
They trace it when you exit into the real world, it’s actually pretty easy when you are looking for a transaction that relates to something real. Unless you can get someone to pay you in real cash for bitcoins, then the transaction that turned your bitcoins into GBP is there for everyone to see, and the exchange or whatever that processed it will have details of your bank accounts they paid the money to. HMRC then ask the bank who the beneficiary is and send you bill.

Atomic12C

5,180 posts

218 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
And that's where the fun starts.

How are people going to declare their capital gains? How many are even realising these gains?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they only become gains if you 'cash in' your bitcoin ?


p1stonhead

25,576 posts

168 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
rxe said:
Too Late said:
I am interested in hosw the HMRC can chase people.

Im not too worried with my 0.2 bitcoin in my wallet but interested in how they can trace the untraceable....
They trace it when you exit into the real world, it’s actually pretty easy when you are looking for a transaction that relates to something real. Unless you can get someone to pay you in real cash for bitcoins, then the transaction that turned your bitcoins into GBP is there for everyone to see, and the exchange or whatever that processed it will have details of your bank accounts they paid the money to. HMRC then ask the bank who the beneficiary is and send you bill.
Yeah I dont see it as being any less anonymous than normal investments when you actually transfer it back to your bank.

But...and not relevent to many these days;

What if you mined them? Basically got given some computer files worth nothing (for doing a bit of calcuation work) which ended up as worth something? Does that still count? There would be no 'purchase' record that way. Does 'mining' count as 'work' so would come under income tax somehow? Income tax should be paid in the year the work was done but if the 'reward' for the work was worth zero back then? Would be interested if anyone knew.

I bet HMRC arent that up to speed with cryptocurrencies yet.

hyphen

26,262 posts

91 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
p1stonhead said:
I bet HMRC arent that up to speed with cryptocurrencies yet.
2014 policy paper https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue...

p1stonhead

25,576 posts

168 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
hyphen said:
p1stonhead said:
I bet HMRC arent that up to speed with cryptocurrencies yet.
2014 policy paper https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue...
Doesnt mention tax on mined coins.

It only seems to mention instances where 'if there is an exchange rate between Bitcoin and the functional currency then this analysis applies.'

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
rxe said:
They trace it when you exit into the real world...
Exactly. Determined money launderers and tax evaders will use all their usual tricks to hide their source of funds but most people will leave a trail directly from the exchanges to their own bank account.

hyphen

26,262 posts

91 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
p1stonhead said:
hyphen said:
p1stonhead said:
I bet HMRC arent that up to speed with cryptocurrencies yet.
2014 policy paper https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue...
Doesnt mention tax on mined coins.
You read that paper in 30 seconds? You asked if they were uptown speed, if they published something in 2014 then surely they are.

Also with the current media attention, you would imagine it has come to there attention further.

p1stonhead

25,576 posts

168 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
hyphen said:
p1stonhead said:
hyphen said:
p1stonhead said:
I bet HMRC arent that up to speed with cryptocurrencies yet.
2014 policy paper https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/revenue...
Doesnt mention tax on mined coins.
You read that paper in 30 seconds?
Scanned it yes. Its tiny.

hyphen

26,262 posts

91 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Wouldn't it be treated like other commodities?

If you had a diamond mine and digged up a diamond for example - as the activity is essentially the same, the rules would transfer over?

anonymous-user

55 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
P1stonheads... HMRC position and accountants advice on crypto is clear.

p1stonhead

25,576 posts

168 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
hyphen said:
Wouldn't it be treated like other commodities?

If you had a diamond mine and digged up a diamond for example - as the activity is essentially the same, the rules would transfer over?
I guess so yes it would be CGT on the rise from Zero to where they are now. Difference with bitcoins is that they were worth nothing when dug up. I suppose this doesnt make a difference.

jammy-git

29,778 posts

213 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
hyphen said:
Wouldn't it be treated like other commodities?

If you had a diamond mine and digged up a diamond for example - as the activity is essentially the same, the rules would transfer over?
Or would it be treated more like a sole trader creating digital content (a web designer for instance)?

p1stonhead

25,576 posts

168 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
fblm said:
P1stonheads... HMRC position and accountants advice on crypto is clear.
Whats the clear advice on mined coins?

Ted2

567 posts

79 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
p1stonhead said:
fblm said:
P1stonheads... HMRC position and accountants advice on crypto is clear.
Whats the clear advice on mined coins?
Let's be realistic here : no-one is going to be mining any coins (BTC at least) unless you happen to have a handy power station in your back garden so the question is moot.

98elise

26,646 posts

162 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Atomic12C said:
Murph7355 said:
And that's where the fun starts.

How are people going to declare their capital gains? How many are even realising these gains?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but they only become gains if you 'cash in' your bitcoin ?
If its treated like shares then yes. The paper value is meaningless until you sell.

If its treated as money then it might be different. We need a forex trader to chime in.

p1stonhead

25,576 posts

168 months

Monday 11th December 2017
quotequote all
Ted2 said:
p1stonhead said:
fblm said:
P1stonheads... HMRC position and accountants advice on crypto is clear.
Whats the clear advice on mined coins?
Let's be realistic here : no-one is going to be mining any coins (BTC at least) unless you happen to have a handy power station in your back garden so the question is moot.
That’s not an answer to the question though is it.

It was only borne out of curiosity. There are people sitting on large quantities due to mining.