Bitcoins?

[anonymous-user]

You are shilling the LN, when other coins already offer low\zero fees and fast transfers, IOTA does all this already, actually closer to satoshi vision,and better scalability(I don't own any). Btc is supposed to be digital gold now it is the new VISA, mixed messages. Its market share is waning.

[Trolleys Thank You]

r11co said:

Irony overload.

BTW The tactic of the snake-oil salesman was also to mock those who walked away from the sales pitch.

ProTip - try explaining the alleged benefits instead of just asserting them and then avoiding actually explaining them by alleging they are too complex for mere mortals to understand. Starting to see the fundamental flaw in the enterprise yet?

As I said - obfuscation and opacity is the key.

Oh, and Bitcoin isn't an asset, it is a concept as are all currencies (but talking about it as if it is an asset is part of the exercise).

Edited by r11co on Sunday 21st January 13:36

No, I'm serious. If you don't understand it, don't touch it, ever. Weak hands are easily influenced by FUD and rumours, and you will lose money.

No obfuscation here. Any attempts at explanation are responded to with tin foil hattery and conspiracy theories. You can lead a horse to water...

The Spruce goose said:

You are shilling the LN, when other coins already offer low\zero fees and fast transfers, IOTA does all this already, actually closer to satoshi vision,and better scalability(I don't own any). Btc is supposed to be digital gold now it is the new VISA, mixed messages. Its market share is waning.

Other coins only have low fees because they have nowhere near the usage Bitcoin does. LN is making Bitcoin low fees with very high usage. That's why it's the leading crypto.

Agree, IOTA is an interesting project but with some very questionable development practices. Not least, they've implemented their own unproven cryptography which has already shown to have major flaws.

Edited by Trolleys Thank You on Sunday 21st January 14:13

[Ari]

Gecko1978 said:

Ari said:

Gecko1978 said:

End of day many thought dot com bubble was just that....years later its a regular part of the everyday.

Err, except it was indeed a bubble, it did actually burst didn't it?

So the speculation part - that it was worth buying today because it was worth more than yesterday and would be worth still more tomorrow, proved flawed. The technology companies it was based on remained useful and had some value however, and still do.

Bitcoins mirrors the bubble part, but without actually being based anything useful or with value. So tulip bulbs is perhaps a better analogy.

Amazon pre bubble ipo $7 bubble around $160 today $1200....see the point its early days no one knows where it will go but it offers some interesting ideas and these ideas like internet companies will only develope an advance you can not put the geni back in the bottle.

we could make it illegal in the uk like say porn or drugs....people just ignore it

But Amazon is useful, it retails billions of dollars, and it has potential to make those invested in it a return on the investment. So that investment has value.

When I buy a bitcoin, or 1,000 bitcoins, what do they actually do? What do they return me in profits or dividends? They don't earn money, they don't look pretty, they have no actual value beyond the fact that there MIGHT be a bigger fool tomorrow prepared to pay me more than I paid the last fool.

Even tulip bulbs at least turned into pretty flowers, they don't even do that!

It's the ultimate Emperor's New Clothes, and in a moment a little boy is going to point out that he's naked.

[r11co]

Trolleys Thank You said:

No, I'm serious. If you don't understand it, don't touch it, ever. Weak hands are very influential to FUD and rumours and you will lose money.

Hilarious! Salesman's tactic 'this product is only good enough for those that understand it, like you good sir'.

You are not warning me off it as you know I can see through it. You are discrediting me to catch the wavering and preserve your chosen strategy.

The opposite of FUD.

I totally get it - there is nothing special to crypto currencies except that they are out-of-step. For them to become mainstream that will have to cease and therefor there will be no point or particular benefit in them. I'm not saying there isn't money to be made just now, but it is only working while there are those who can be made to lose and lose big from it.

Let's just take one of your points - a 'cheap to store' asset. Yes, in comparison to other electronically stored currencies but the only difference is the overheads. Cryptos as I said take advantage either knowingly or mostly unknowingly of computer power that exists but the owner of doesn't notice is being used or willingly hands over a portion of it to be used. When the model is understood it will be easy to compete with and will become ubiquitous.

Edited by r11co on Sunday 21st January 14:25

[anonymous-user]

Trolleys Thank You said:

Other coins only have low fees because they have nowhere near the usage Bitcoin does. .

Really?
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionfe...





Ripple seems to have cornered the market.

[Harris_I]

Trolleys Thank You said:

In short, deflationary spirals are accentuated by the fractional reserve banking system as the total circulating money supply rapidly contracts. Less of a problem for Bitcoin which is completely immune to FRB. There are also some other coins with interesting auto inflationary algorithms

I have been following this thread silently, but this really sums up the crux of cryptocurrency. I think anyone who tries to describe it as an "asset" that lacks real "intrinsic value" is totally missing the point. This is about the nature of money itself.

Does society believe that money should itself be a commodity to be traded, or that it should be merely a medium of exchange, in other words a measure of value in real goods and services? If society comes to the belief that the latter is better for long-term economic prosperity and wealth equality, then is there such a thing as a currency that cannot be manipulated by governments (insert appropriate apparent conspiracy theory here, e.g the need to maintain a military-industrial complex financed by the banks)?

The fact that BTC is highly volatile today should not detract from the end game: I think there is a land grab taking place at this moment and once the dust settles (ie BTC is substantially mined), I suspect a massive wealth transfer will have taken place that resets the economic clock.

[Gecko1978]

Harris_I said:

Trolleys Thank You said:

In short, deflationary spirals are accentuated by the fractional reserve banking system as the total circulating money supply rapidly contracts. Less of a problem for Bitcoin which is completely immune to FRB. There are also some other coins with interesting auto inflationary algorithms

I have been following this thread silently, but this really sums up the crux of cryptocurrency. I think anyone who tries to describe it as an "asset" that lacks real "intrinsic value" is totally missing the point. This is about the nature of money itself.

Does society believe that money should itself be a commodity to be traded, or that it should be merely a medium of exchange, in other words a measure of value in real goods and services? If society comes to the belief that the latter is better for long-term economic prosperity and wealth equality, then is there such a thing as a currency that cannot be manipulated by governments (insert appropriate apparent conspiracy theory here, e.g the need to maintain a military-industrial complex financed by the banks)?

The fact that BTC is highly volatile today should not detract from the end game: I think there is a land grab taking place at this moment and once the dust settles (ie BTC is substantially mined), I suspect a massive wealth transfer will have taken place that resets the economic clock.

I am not big on conspiracy but should BTC become widely used and there emerges a new group of wealthy individuals its likely the existing wealth holders will want to welcome them with open arms etc. We just don't know. I for one am not going to become rich off btc I came to the party way too late but the way it is reacting feels very much like the rise of the internet in late 90s early 00s and perhaps the more recent market for apps.

[Trolleys Thank You]

r11co said:

Cryptos as I said take advantage either knowingly or mostly unknowingly of computer power that exists but the owner of doesn't notice is being used or willingly hands over a portion of it to be used. When the model is understood it will be easy to compete with and will become ubiquitous.

Edited by r11co on Sunday 21st January 14:25

You keep mentioning this but where is the evidence that most of it is being mined unknowingly?

The Spruce goose said:

Really?
https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/transactionfe...

Ripple seems to have cornered the market.

I thought we were comparing decentralised cryptocurrencies? Ripple is anything but.

[anonymous-user]

Trolleys Thank You said:

fblm said:

BTC in particular is deflationary. You avoided the question before so here it is again; how can a government break deflation spiralling into economic depression when your main source of payments is BTC? Do you really think government are going to give up ALL control of monetary policy? I think you may understand the tech but you don't appear to understand economics or politics. We haven't even touched on kyc/aml...

Better than western union huh? I'll bear that in mind the next time I'm sending 50 quid back to my village in Africa!

I have answered it before. Please read back. In short, deflationary spirals are accentuated by the fractional reserve banking system as the total circulating money supply rapidly contracts. Less of a problem for Bitcoin which is completely immune to FRB. There are also some other coins with interesting auto inflationary algorithms

Hand waving assertion. You didn't answer it before because there is no btc equivalent to monetary policy. You can't alleviate recession or depression in a BTC world. What you're ow pushing is that it's somehow convenient and cheaper to use effectively a foreign currency in the UK which is more absurd than suggesting we all start using Swiss Frank debit cards. Why?

[Harris_I]

fblm said:

You can't alleviate recession or depression in a BTC world.

So then let's ask the hypothetical question: if all the world used a finitely bound decentralised currency operating outside a fractional reserve banking system, how does this impact on economic cycles?

My view is such an economic model strongly reins in the tendency to boom and bust. And if that's the case, then the ability to manipulate currency is no longer vital.

[PhillipM]

It certainly isn't being mostly mined unknowingly, if you've seen some of the server farms crunching this stuff and what it's done to both GPU supplies and ASIC waiting times.

[Trolleys Thank You]

fblm said:

Hand waving assertion. You didn't answer it before because there is no btc equivalent to monetary policy. You can't alleviate recession or depression in a BTC world. What you're ow pushing is that it's somehow convenient and cheaper to use effectively a foreign currency in the UK which is more absurd than suggesting we all start using Swiss Frank debit cards. Why?

You wouldn't have a debt fuelled recession or depression in the first place in a BTC world. Underrated post by Harris_I above on this topic.

Not understanding your comparison to Swiss Franks. BTC is no more "foreign" than the internet. It's global, nobody owns it.

[anonymous-user]

Harris_I said:

So then let's ask the hypothetical question: if all the world used a finitely bound decentralised currency operating outside a fractional reserve banking system, how does this impact on economic cycles?

My view is such an economic model strongly reins in the tendency to boom and bust. And if that's the case, then the ability to manipulate currency is no longer vital.

So there was no boom and bust under a gold standard? No boom and bust pre frb? Whilst humans are driven by fear and greed there will always be boom and bust. But we digress, I was talking about deflationary depression CAUSED by the currency. Why spend or invest your BTC today when it will buy more a year from now? More importantly the elephant in the room is government will not give up that control. Now when the BoE, Fed, ECB or SNB launch a cc the world will change. Until then it's an interesting side show.

[anonymous-user]

Trolleys Thank You said:

You wouldn't have a debt fuelled recession or depression in the first place in a BTC world. Underrated post by Harris_I above on this topic.

Not understanding your comparison to Swiss Franks. BTC is no more "foreign" than the internet. It's global, nobody owns it.

Your latest sales pitch has been how cheap and convenient BTC is to use. Except it isn't. It's as cheap and convenient to use as a foreign currency, less so in fact; UK businesses are far more likely to take usd or eur than btc...

[Harris_I]

fblm said:

Harris_I said:

So then let's ask the hypothetical question: if all the world used a finitely bound decentralised currency operating outside a fractional reserve banking system, how does this impact on economic cycles?

My view is such an economic model strongly reins in the tendency to boom and bust. And if that's the case, then the ability to manipulate currency is no longer vital.

So there was no boom and bust under a gold standard? No boom and bust pre frb? Whilst humans are driven by fear and greed there will always be boom and bust. But we digress, I was talking about deflationary depression CAUSED by the currency. Why spend or invest your BTC today when it will buy more a year from now? More importantly the elephant in the room is government will not give up that control. Now when the BoE, Fed, ECB or SNB launch a cc the world will change. Until then it's an interesting side show.

As Samuel L Jackson once said, it's an interesting point.

You're right, even theoretically I can't see how the "right" type of cryptocurrency could completely eliminate cyclicality. But I also believe (and "believe" is a key word, I admit) that cutting out the banks from the process of money creation (and I know you and I have a slightly different view on this ref the Deutsche Bank thread a year or so back) reduces leverage in the economy, and significantly reduces systemic risk.

I also agree that governments will fight an independent monetary system. They already are. When Jamie Dimon called BTC a fraud, IMV it was either because he is stupid or because he is a Fed stooge. More likely the latter.

Will central banks launch a cc? Perhaps. It's already happening. But would I trust it? Probably less than Satoshi's creation. In the meantime, I'm enjoying watching history unfold and putting a little pocket money into BTC for the full duration. I've no idea which way this will go, but ideologically I like it.

[Trolleys Thank You]

fblm said:

Trolleys Thank You said:

You wouldn't have a debt fuelled recession or depression in the first place in a BTC world. Underrated post by Harris_I above on this topic.

Not understanding your comparison to Swiss Franks. BTC is no more "foreign" than the internet. It's global, nobody owns it.

Your latest sales pitch has been how cheap and convenient BTC is to use. Except it isn't. It's as cheap and convenient to use as a foreign currency, less so in fact; UK businesses are far more likely to take usd or eur than btc...

It will again be cheap and convenient. That's not a sales pitch, it's a fact. I see far more places in London accept Bitcoin/Ethereum than USD/Euros

[anonymous-user]

Trolleys Thank You said:

It will again be cheap and convenient. That's not a sales pitch, it's a fact. I see far more places in London accept Bitcoin/Ethereum than USD/Euros

So, cheap and convenient like cash then. Great.
I was thinking more B2B than high street...

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 21st January 17:25

[anonymous-user]

Harris_I said:

Will central banks launch a cc? Perhaps. It's already happening. But would I trust it? Probably less than Satoshi's creation.

If they did I'd assume they'd also crack down on the anonymous ones...

[Harris_I]

Yes. There's going to be a fascinating power struggle in the next few years. It's going to be bloody brilliant.

[anonymous-user]

PhillipM said:

It certainly isn't being mostly mined unknowingly, if you've seen some of the server farms crunching this stuff and what it's done to both GPU supplies and ASIC waiting times.

I doubt they are either, you'd need a collosal bot net to compete with an asic farm. Irrelevant now but I'll wager most of the early coins were mined by sys admins on their unwitting employer or Uni networks just as they ran seti and folding before...