Discussion
Trolleys Thank You said:
Hardly. BTC has already proved itself to be one of the most secure, un forgeable and cheapest to store assets in existence. If you don't see the value in at least those properties then your'e going to struggle to get to grips with the rest of it's benefits. Probably for the best you don't get involved.
You keep saying it's secure.Google "bitcoin heist"
Secure. Yep. Totally.
Trolleys Thank You said:
fblm said:
Hand waving assertion. You didn't answer it before because there is no btc equivalent to monetary policy. You can't alleviate recession or depression in a BTC world. What you're ow pushing is that it's somehow convenient and cheaper to use effectively a foreign currency in the UK which is more absurd than suggesting we all start using Swiss Frank debit cards. Why?
You wouldn't have a debt fuelled recession or depression in the first place in a BTC world. Underrated post by Harris_I above on this topic.Not understanding your comparison to Swiss Franks. BTC is no more "foreign" than the internet. It's global, nobody owns it.
Jonesy23 said:
It demonstrates the pointlessness of the 'security'.
The coin might be immutable and the transactions records robust but that doesn't provide any security for your personal holdings.
No it doesn't. If you run your own node you can store your coins direct on the blockchain. Very secure, no third parties involved.The coin might be immutable and the transactions records robust but that doesn't provide any security for your personal holdings.
Why don't you try and compare the challenges involved in securing £10,000,000 of gold and cash under your own management compared to securing £10,000,000 of bitcoin?
If you ALWAYS and FOREVER want a third party to hold and manage your wealth, and to allow you to make payments to selected third parties under their terms, then maybe you have a point. I will grant you that in the UK this is arguably less of an issue than in the third and developing world, but that can change.
dimots said:
No it doesn't. If you run your own node you can store your coins direct on the blockchain. Very secure, no third parties involved.
Why don't you try and compare the challenges involved in securing £10,000,000 of gold and cash under your own management compared to securing £10,000,000 of bitcoin?
If you ALWAYS and FOREVER want a third party to hold and manage your wealth, and to allow you to make payments to selected third parties under their terms, then maybe you have a point. I will grant you that in the UK this is arguably less of an issue than in the third and developing world, but that can change.
I really do have to disagree with the security side of things.Why don't you try and compare the challenges involved in securing £10,000,000 of gold and cash under your own management compared to securing £10,000,000 of bitcoin?
If you ALWAYS and FOREVER want a third party to hold and manage your wealth, and to allow you to make payments to selected third parties under their terms, then maybe you have a point. I will grant you that in the UK this is arguably less of an issue than in the third and developing world, but that can change.
Whilst I do have various coins and have traded for a while with successes and losses, I am not blind to quite how dangerous "bitcoin" is.
1)The most unsecure part of the process is buying in. You hand over money in the trust that either a third party (i.e. bittylicious) or a seller will give you the bitcoin.
2)To convert your BTC to another Coin, you again need to trust that either an exchange will not run off with your money, be hacked, or the company you are buying the coin from is legit.
3)Transferring coins is blind, all you have is an address to send it to, no way of verifying you have pasted in the right one.
4)For small amounts of money, the fees for taking your money out of an exchange are way too high(cashing out even more so), so mean you end up leaving it in there.
5) To secure your bitcoin requires A LOT of knowledge. You can't trust any website you read as so many are trying to scam you, and most of the secure options are too expensive for most people.
Whilst I love the idea of bitcoin, It has big issues that will prevent it becoming really mainstream.
I left some odds and sods amounting to roughly £200 in an exchange back in 2008ish. The exchange owner walked off with all of it. My fault for not moving to my own wallets, but split across 4/5 coins the fees would have been too high so I left it in.
Efbe said:
I really do have to disagree with the security side of things.
Whilst I do have various coins and have traded for a while with successes and losses, I am not blind to quite how dangerous "bitcoin" is.
1)The most unsecure part of the process is buying in. You hand over money in the trust that either a third party (i.e. bittylicious) or a seller will give you the bitcoin.
2)To convert your BTC to another Coin, you again need to trust that either an exchange will not run off with your money, be hacked, or the company you are buying the coin from is legit.
3)Transferring coins is blind, all you have is an address to send it to, no way of verifying you have pasted in the right one.
4)For small amounts of money, the fees for taking your money out of an exchange are way too high(cashing out even more so), so mean you end up leaving it in there.
5) To secure your bitcoin requires A LOT of knowledge. You can't trust any website you read as so many are trying to scam you, and most of the secure options are too expensive for most people.
Whilst I love the idea of bitcoin, It has big issues that will prevent it becoming really mainstream.
I left some odds and sods amounting to roughly £200 in an exchange back in 2008ish. The exchange owner walked off with all of it. My fault for not moving to my own wallets, but split across 4/5 coins the fees would have been too high so I left it in.
1) You can mine it yourself if you don't want to buy it. Buying is not particularly risky at all. You can use cash at an ATM or do it online. Third party transactions for anything of value carry 'some' risk. Try buying gold online...same thing.Whilst I do have various coins and have traded for a while with successes and losses, I am not blind to quite how dangerous "bitcoin" is.
1)The most unsecure part of the process is buying in. You hand over money in the trust that either a third party (i.e. bittylicious) or a seller will give you the bitcoin.
2)To convert your BTC to another Coin, you again need to trust that either an exchange will not run off with your money, be hacked, or the company you are buying the coin from is legit.
3)Transferring coins is blind, all you have is an address to send it to, no way of verifying you have pasted in the right one.
4)For small amounts of money, the fees for taking your money out of an exchange are way too high(cashing out even more so), so mean you end up leaving it in there.
5) To secure your bitcoin requires A LOT of knowledge. You can't trust any website you read as so many are trying to scam you, and most of the secure options are too expensive for most people.
Whilst I love the idea of bitcoin, It has big issues that will prevent it becoming really mainstream.
I left some odds and sods amounting to roughly £200 in an exchange back in 2008ish. The exchange owner walked off with all of it. My fault for not moving to my own wallets, but split across 4/5 coins the fees would have been too high so I left it in.
2) Currency exchange online carries some risk if you do it through a third party...what does this have to do with bitcoin security?
3) It is not blind, you have a totally unique address to send it to.
4) What does this have to do with bitcoin security?
5) Securing your bitcoins takes a little bit of effort to understand, but I refer to my previous point - if you had to try and secure £10,000,000 of gold or cash under your own steam you would find it a lot more difficult and more expensive than securing £10,000,000 of bitcoin.
dimots said:
Efbe said:
I really do have to disagree with the security side of things.
Whilst I do have various coins and have traded for a while with successes and losses, I am not blind to quite how dangerous "bitcoin" is.
1)The most unsecure part of the process is buying in. You hand over money in the trust that either a third party (i.e. bittylicious) or a seller will give you the bitcoin.
2)To convert your BTC to another Coin, you again need to trust that either an exchange will not run off with your money, be hacked, or the company you are buying the coin from is legit.
3)Transferring coins is blind, all you have is an address to send it to, no way of verifying you have pasted in the right one.
4)For small amounts of money, the fees for taking your money out of an exchange are way too high(cashing out even more so), so mean you end up leaving it in there.
5) To secure your bitcoin requires A LOT of knowledge. You can't trust any website you read as so many are trying to scam you, and most of the secure options are too expensive for most people.
Whilst I love the idea of bitcoin, It has big issues that will prevent it becoming really mainstream.
I left some odds and sods amounting to roughly £200 in an exchange back in 2008ish. The exchange owner walked off with all of it. My fault for not moving to my own wallets, but split across 4/5 coins the fees would have been too high so I left it in.
1) You can mine it yourself if you don't want to buy it. Buying is not particularly risky at all. You can use cash at an ATM or do it online. Third party transactions for anything of value carry 'some' risk. Try buying gold online...same thing.Whilst I do have various coins and have traded for a while with successes and losses, I am not blind to quite how dangerous "bitcoin" is.
1)The most unsecure part of the process is buying in. You hand over money in the trust that either a third party (i.e. bittylicious) or a seller will give you the bitcoin.
2)To convert your BTC to another Coin, you again need to trust that either an exchange will not run off with your money, be hacked, or the company you are buying the coin from is legit.
3)Transferring coins is blind, all you have is an address to send it to, no way of verifying you have pasted in the right one.
4)For small amounts of money, the fees for taking your money out of an exchange are way too high(cashing out even more so), so mean you end up leaving it in there.
5) To secure your bitcoin requires A LOT of knowledge. You can't trust any website you read as so many are trying to scam you, and most of the secure options are too expensive for most people.
Whilst I love the idea of bitcoin, It has big issues that will prevent it becoming really mainstream.
I left some odds and sods amounting to roughly £200 in an exchange back in 2008ish. The exchange owner walked off with all of it. My fault for not moving to my own wallets, but split across 4/5 coins the fees would have been too high so I left it in.
2) Currency exchange online carries some risk if you do it through a third party...what does this have to do with bitcoin security?
3) It is not blind, you have a totally unique address to send it to.
4) What does this have to do with bitcoin security?
5) Securing your bitcoins takes a little bit of effort to understand, but I refer to my previous point - if you had to try and secure £10,000,000 of gold or cash under your own steam you would find it a lot more difficult and more expensive than securing £10,000,000 of bitcoin.
2) What percentage of Bitcoin transactions do not go through an exchange of some sort? I assumed a majority did?
3) True.
4) Its just a negative that will hinder it being take up mainstream.
5) How about pocket money amounts or a few grand which is what most people will be using if this is to take off? Will people really be willing to spend the time taking them offline etc if they then have to get it all back online tomorrow to buy their tesco shop? Again just another hinderance which may stop it taking off.
Note - by taking off, I mean it being used as an actual currency rather than a store of wealth.
dimots said:
Jonesy23 said:
It demonstrates the pointlessness of the 'security'.
The coin might be immutable and the transactions records robust but that doesn't provide any security for your personal holdings.
No it doesn't. If you run your own node you can store your coins direct on the blockchain. Very secure, no third parties involved.The coin might be immutable and the transactions records robust but that doesn't provide any security for your personal holdings.
Why don't you try and compare the challenges involved in securing £10,000,000 of gold and cash under your own management compared to securing £10,000,000 of bitcoin?
If you ALWAYS and FOREVER want a third party to hold and manage your wealth, and to allow you to make payments to selected third parties under their terms, then maybe you have a point. I will grant you that in the UK this is arguably less of an issue than in the third and developing world, but that can change.
You can store all your cash at home, but then that has it's downsides too.
Yes but storing all that cash at home is hardly easy. You will need a safe and you will need to use an armed guard and armoured car every time you want to move it around.
With bitcoin you can create a massively secure long-term stash. Paper wallet or offline wallet is perfect for your long term savings. This can be the size of a stamp and can be worth any amount.
You can keep pocket-money accounts on your phone. iPhone backed up to cloud and secured with two factor authentication is actually quite robust. Print and keep the private key somewhere in case you need to restore. Easy.
With bitcoin you can create a massively secure long-term stash. Paper wallet or offline wallet is perfect for your long term savings. This can be the size of a stamp and can be worth any amount.
You can keep pocket-money accounts on your phone. iPhone backed up to cloud and secured with two factor authentication is actually quite robust. Print and keep the private key somewhere in case you need to restore. Easy.
dimots said:
Yes but storing all that cash at home is hardly easy. You will need a safe and you will need to use an armed guard and armoured car every time you want to move it around.
With bitcoin you can create a massively secure long-term stash. Paper wallet or offline wallet is perfect for your long term savings. This can be the size of a stamp and can be worth any amount.
You can keep pocket-money accounts on your phone. iPhone backed up to cloud and secured with two factor authentication is actually quite robust. Print and keep the private key somewhere in case you need to restore. Easy.
But if you lose your debit card, you dont lose all of your money too.With bitcoin you can create a massively secure long-term stash. Paper wallet or offline wallet is perfect for your long term savings. This can be the size of a stamp and can be worth any amount.
You can keep pocket-money accounts on your phone. iPhone backed up to cloud and secured with two factor authentication is actually quite robust. Print and keep the private key somewhere in case you need to restore. Easy.
Efbe said:
dimots said:
No it doesn't. If you run your own node you can store your coins direct on the blockchain. Very secure, no third parties involved.
Why don't you try and compare the challenges involved in securing £10,000,000 of gold and cash under your own management compared to securing £10,000,000 of bitcoin?
If you ALWAYS and FOREVER want a third party to hold and manage your wealth, and to allow you to make payments to selected third parties under their terms, then maybe you have a point. I will grant you that in the UK this is arguably less of an issue than in the third and developing world, but that can change.
I really do have to disagree with the security side of things.Why don't you try and compare the challenges involved in securing £10,000,000 of gold and cash under your own management compared to securing £10,000,000 of bitcoin?
If you ALWAYS and FOREVER want a third party to hold and manage your wealth, and to allow you to make payments to selected third parties under their terms, then maybe you have a point. I will grant you that in the UK this is arguably less of an issue than in the third and developing world, but that can change.
Whilst I do have various coins and have traded for a while with successes and losses, I am not blind to quite how dangerous "bitcoin" is.
1)The most unsecure part of the process is buying in. You hand over money in the trust that either a third party (i.e. bittylicious) or a seller will give you the bitcoin.
2)To convert your BTC to another Coin, you again need to trust that either an exchange will not run off with your money, be hacked, or the company you are buying the coin from is legit.
3)Transferring coins is blind, all you have is an address to send it to, no way of verifying you have pasted in the right one.
4)For small amounts of money, the fees for taking your money out of an exchange are way too high(cashing out even more so), so mean you end up leaving it in there.
5) To secure your bitcoin requires A LOT of knowledge. You can't trust any website you read as so many are trying to scam you, and most of the secure options are too expensive for most people.
Whilst I love the idea of bitcoin, It has big issues that will prevent it becoming really mainstream.
I left some odds and sods amounting to roughly £200 in an exchange back in 2008ish. The exchange owner walked off with all of it. My fault for not moving to my own wallets, but split across 4/5 coins the fees would have been too high so I left it in.
Meanwhile, the number of Lightning Nodes has doubled again!
https://lnmainnet.gaben.win/
Edited by Trolleys Thank You on Tuesday 23 January 11:22
p1stonhead said:
But if you lose your debit card, you dont lose all of your money too.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but obviously you realise that your debit card is not your money? e.g. If you try to sell your debit card for the value of your savings how much do you think you will get?
dimots said:
p1stonhead said:
But if you lose your debit card, you dont lose all of your money too.
I'm not sure if you're serious, but obviously you realise that your debit card is not your money? e.g. If you try to sell your debit card for the value of your savings how much do you think you will get?
I wouldnt trust myself literally having £100k sat in my house in the form off an offline wallet or having bitcoins stored on a hard drive. I dont think a lot of people would be confortable with it.
A debit card can access your money same as your offline coin storage can, but if you lose the debit card, you dont lose all of your money like you would with an offline store of your coins.
Is any of the above incorrect (genuine question) in terms of storing bitcoins offline for security?
Trolleys Thank You said:
Of course, there's always some risk when trading anything. However, "atomic swaps" between cryptos will make centralised exchanges a thing of the past. By using Hash Time Lock Contracts (currently being pioneered by Lightning) you can guarantee trades do or don't happen without the need for any exchange holding your funds inbetween.
Meanwhile, the number of Lightning Nodes has doubled again!
https://lnmainnet.gaben.win/
Doesn't sound quite as good when you look at the actual numbers though. Meanwhile, the number of Lightning Nodes has doubled again!
https://lnmainnet.gaben.win/
Edited by Trolleys Thank You on Tuesday 23 January 11:22
"The number of Lightning Nodes has just reached 3 digits"
p1stonhead said:
This is my exact point - an offline bitcoin store (correct me if I am wrong) literally contains your money hence people sifting through the tip to find old hard drives containing millions of quid.
I wouldnt trust myself literally having £100k sat in my house in the form off an offline wallet or having bitcoins stored on a hard drive. I dont think a lot of people would be confortable with it.
A debit card can access your money same as your offline coin storage can, but if you lose the debit card, you dont lose all of your money like you would with an offline store of your coins.
Is any of the above incorrect (genuine question) in terms of storing bitcoins offline for security?
You can get a bitcoin debit card if you want one.I wouldnt trust myself literally having £100k sat in my house in the form off an offline wallet or having bitcoins stored on a hard drive. I dont think a lot of people would be confortable with it.
A debit card can access your money same as your offline coin storage can, but if you lose the debit card, you dont lose all of your money like you would with an offline store of your coins.
Is any of the above incorrect (genuine question) in terms of storing bitcoins offline for security?
You can give the piece of paper containing your bitcoins to a bank to look after if you want to.
dimots said:
p1stonhead said:
This is my exact point - an offline bitcoin store (correct me if I am wrong) literally contains your money hence people sifting through the tip to find old hard drives containing millions of quid.
I wouldnt trust myself literally having £100k sat in my house in the form off an offline wallet or having bitcoins stored on a hard drive. I dont think a lot of people would be confortable with it.
A debit card can access your money same as your offline coin storage can, but if you lose the debit card, you dont lose all of your money like you would with an offline store of your coins.
Is any of the above incorrect (genuine question) in terms of storing bitcoins offline for security?
You can get a bitcoin debit card if you want one.I wouldnt trust myself literally having £100k sat in my house in the form off an offline wallet or having bitcoins stored on a hard drive. I dont think a lot of people would be confortable with it.
A debit card can access your money same as your offline coin storage can, but if you lose the debit card, you dont lose all of your money like you would with an offline store of your coins.
Is any of the above incorrect (genuine question) in terms of storing bitcoins offline for security?
You can give the piece of paper containing your bitcoins to a bank to look after if you want to.
its clearly working in some form as a store of wealth, but thats not what it is meant to be.
p1stonhead said:
This is my exact point - an offline bitcoin store (correct me if I am wrong) literally contains your money hence people sifting through the tip to find old hard drives containing millions of quid.
Strictly speaking, no. A wallet never contains any coins. A wallet simply holds your cryptographic private key so you are able to spend your coins which are on the blockchain. The further away you keep those keys from the internet or other people, the more secure they are.dimots said:
p1stonhead said:
This is my exact point - an offline bitcoin store (correct me if I am wrong) literally contains your money hence people sifting through the tip to find old hard drives containing millions of quid.
I wouldnt trust myself literally having £100k sat in my house in the form off an offline wallet or having bitcoins stored on a hard drive. I dont think a lot of people would be confortable with it.
A debit card can access your money same as your offline coin storage can, but if you lose the debit card, you dont lose all of your money like you would with an offline store of your coins.
Is any of the above incorrect (genuine question) in terms of storing bitcoins offline for security?
You can get a bitcoin debit card if you want one.I wouldnt trust myself literally having £100k sat in my house in the form off an offline wallet or having bitcoins stored on a hard drive. I dont think a lot of people would be confortable with it.
A debit card can access your money same as your offline coin storage can, but if you lose the debit card, you dont lose all of your money like you would with an offline store of your coins.
Is any of the above incorrect (genuine question) in terms of storing bitcoins offline for security?
You can give the piece of paper containing your bitcoins to a bank to look after if you want to.
Trolleys Thank You said:
p1stonhead said:
This is my exact point - an offline bitcoin store (correct me if I am wrong) literally contains your money hence people sifting through the tip to find old hard drives containing millions of quid.
Strictly speaking, no. A wallet never contains any coins. A wallet simply holds your cryptographic private key so you are able to spend your coins which are on the blockchain. The further away you keep those keys from the internet or other people, the more secure they are.Techincally different but realistically no difference.
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