Right to self-defence in homes to be 'much clearer'

[Caulkhead]

ErnestM said:

IMHO, it is close to worthless recognizing a homeowner's right to self defense but at the same time denying people the right to own the proper tools to do so.

I do suppose it is a (very small) step in the right direction, though.

You can't compare the US and UK on this issue, I know I've lived in the US.

It is very rare for criminals to be armed here for any crime and virtually nil for house burglary. The police are also largely unarmed. Much as I am pro-gun, arming homeowners here will just up the ante and force the crims to arm and then the police to arm. Much as I fancy an FN five-seven my shotguns remain an effective self-defence weapon.

[bobbylondonuk]

The thread seems to be moving into gun ownership.....that is not the point is it? Question is why should I not be able to use force against an intruder to my home in defense of my family and property?

Could be baseball bats, could be knives.....could be my steel toe boot into his ribs

[dandarez]

bobbylondonuk said:

The thread seems to be moving into gun ownership.....that is not the point is it? Question is why should I not be able to use force against an intruder to my home in defense of my family and property?

Could be baseball bats, could be knives.....could be my steel toe boot into his ribs

No. I (and the majority I believe) 'don't' want gun ownership.
We tend to follow the yanks, but hopefully not on this one.

What the majority of us want is a proper and fair criminal justice system!

[Lefty]

Buggles said:

Lefty said:

So buy a real one:

www.southern-gun.co.uk

http://www.bradleyarms.com/products.html

www.ar15.co.uk

Could I keep one of those in my house?

I guess I wouldn't be allowed a fully automatic one?

No, you can't have full auto. You can get a semi auto in .22 rimfire.

If you got the FAC approved you could certainly keep it in your house, in a suitable safe.

[ErnestM]

bobby, in my opinion, the right to use appropriate force to defend you hearth and home should not be subject to state sanction or restriction. That being said, some of the methods that you have listed (from strictly a cost/benefit analysis) would probably not be a good first choice. Up close and personal is probably not a good first choice with an unknown threat.

[nobodyknows]

ErnestM said:

Again, IMHO, a way forward for the UK would be to allow people to keep handguns/firearms in their homes for lawful self defense. The announcement of that policy, alone, would probably deter a great many would be home invaders.

And then the criminal fraternity will have even easier access to weapons surely?

[Shuvi Tupya]

nobodyknows said:

And then the criminal fraternity will have even easier access to weapons surely?

Criminals do not need easier access to guns, they are the only people that don't have a problem getting hold of them now..(in the UK)

[ErnestM]

nobodyknows said:

ErnestM said:

Again, IMHO, a way forward for the UK would be to allow people to keep handguns/firearms in their homes for lawful self defense. The announcement of that policy, alone, would probably deter a great many would be home invaders.

And then the criminal fraternity will have even easier access to weapons surely?

Criminals already have easier access to firearms than the law abiding in the UK. Nothing would change on that front. Beef up the laws for criminal use of firearms concurrently with easier access to the law abiding. While criminals do not (by definition) obey laws, they do engage in cost/benefit analysis (of a sort). If they knew that using a firearm during a commission of a crime tacked on 20 years to any other sentence, they would take that into consideration before commiting a crime. If they knew that a homeowner could potentially be legally armed and ventilate invaders with impunity, all of a sudden the plasma tv that they covet doesn't seem worth the risk.

Right now the cost/benefit analysis of the criminal takes into account that the system will do very little to them but may potentially hold the homeowner liable for harming the criminal (if my reading of current UK law/policy is correct).

Implied homeowner immunity for taking defensive measures would probably reduce home invasion quite a bit.

All that I am advocating is that if the UK is going to take this step, make it so that the homeowner can actually excercise this right in the easiest and safest manner possible.

[Zod]

ErnestM said:

If homeowners are allowed the right tools, this would probably be the result.

Again, IMHO, a way forward for the UK would be to allow people to keep handguns/firearms in their homes for lawful self defense. The announcement of that policy, alone, would probably deter a great many would be home invaders.

Don't want people walking around with their heaters? OK. I disagree, but recognise that it will be a long road for the UK to go from personal defense being the responsibility of the State to personal defense being the responsibility of the person. However, defending one's home/family seems to be (in the parlance of the politically correct) a basic human right.

Of course the leftists and media (but I repeat myself) won't like it but they will be hard pressed to explain the drop in home invasions after the policy allowing home self defense with firearms is announced. Even the US media are hard pressed to explain it...

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/fbi-crime-stats-show-...

You don't think it would lead to burglars arming themselves with the guns that are readily available where they sell their loot?

[jshell]

Jobbo said:

superkartracer said:

Jobbo said:

How many more cases will there be of householders having their own weapons used against them? I don't want to be overpowered as I attempt to stab a burglar.

Just sit there and let them rob you then! what he's saying is... if you DO decide to defend your wife/kids from being possibly raped and killed then you wont be locked-up.

...And I'm extrapolating the consequences. Householders learn that they are entitled to defend themselves, acquire knives (or leave the kitchen knives in convenient locations) and what will happen? Lots of stabbed burglars or lots of stabbed householders...?

There'll be hand-wringing, pacifist website somewhere over there for ya ------------------->

HTH

[ErnestM]

Zod said:

ErnestM said:

If homeowners are allowed the right tools, this would probably be the result.

Again, IMHO, a way forward for the UK would be to allow people to keep handguns/firearms in their homes for lawful self defense. The announcement of that policy, alone, would probably deter a great many would be home invaders.

Don't want people walking around with their heaters? OK. I disagree, but recognise that it will be a long road for the UK to go from personal defense being the responsibility of the State to personal defense being the responsibility of the person. However, defending one's home/family seems to be (in the parlance of the politically correct) a basic human right.

Of course the leftists and media (but I repeat myself) won't like it but they will be hard pressed to explain the drop in home invasions after the policy allowing home self defense with firearms is announced. Even the US media are hard pressed to explain it...

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/fbi-crime-stats-show-...

You don't think it would lead to burglars arming themselves with the guns that are readily available where they sell their loot?

1. What makes you think that they are not doing that already?

2. If the laws for criminal use of firearms are beefed up, then I don't believe the criminals would 'tool up' for a simple home invasion. Remember, the goal is easy access to sellable stuff and the ability to enjoy fruits of their labour. Can't do that if they are in prison for 30 years.

[Pot Bellied Fool]

BruceV8 said:

Get a deactivated Chinese AK (a Type 56) which has a permanently fitted spring loaded bayonet.

Hang on... you can't kid us. We've seen photos of your old office - we know that any visitor that doesn't know which flagstones to avoid stepping on will soon find themselves leaping into the air & spreading themselves liberally over 100yards...

[Sonic]

Lefty said:

No, you can't have full auto. You can get a semi auto in .22 rimfire.

If you got the FAC approved you could certainly keep it in your house, in a suitable safe.

How do i go about purchasing and owning such a magnificent machine? I had no idea these were available in the UK.

http://www.southern-gun.co.uk/?page=items&cat_...

[Bing o]

I'd rather the UK as a society dealt with why people feel the need to commit property crime in the first place and dealt with that. And deliver proper punishments to those who are caught. Burglary should be an automatic 5 years at the first offense, 10 for the second, and life for the third.

Most burglars are prolific anyway, so locking one up for life would cost money in jail time, but would save more in terms of policing, insurance premiums etc.

[turbobloke]

Something for the present day, for sure. Headlines in one paper this morning point to a corresponding increase in burglaries while the economy has been heading down the poop chute. As such more to follow, both burglaries and economic poop.

[Zaxxon]

This lies just under my bed.

I don't want to kill the tt, but with this I can blind him for a short while and then knock some sense into him....a few times.

Then go and get the Global

[Jimbeaux]

Lefty said:

superkartracer said:

Jobbo said:

How many more cases will there be of householders having their own weapons used against them? I don't want to be overpowered as I attempt to stab a burglar.

Just sit there and let them rob you then! what he's saying is... if you DO decide to defend your wife/kids from being possibly raped and killed then you wont be locked-up.

I don't want to run after people but if they are in the house then i'll cut them in two with my shotgun

Simple

To be honest, if it's a choice between my wife/kids being raped/killed and me going to jail then I'll take the clink, every time.

The same here. I would rather be tried by twelve than carried by six.

[Jimbeaux]

Bing o said:

ErnestM said:

IMHO, it is close to worthless recognizing a homeowner's right to self defense but at the same time denying people the right to own the proper tools to do so.

I do suppose it is a (very small) step in the right direction, though.

Because the US is such a peaceful safe place to live.

Waahhhhh!

[Jimbeaux]

dandarez said:

Burglaries are on the increase so this comes at an opportune moment, and not before time.

My property is exactly that... mine!
Perhaps a little notice on the front door?

WARNING!
You enter at your own risk if my family has not invited you, or if we do not know you.
We cannot be held responsible for any actions against unknown, uninvited persons.
We apologise for this inconvenience. Mr & Mrs Baseballbat

This won't prevent burglaries, but perhaps they won't go on rising at the same rate.

"Intruders will be shot; survivors shot again"??

Edited by Jimbeaux on Wednesday 29th June 14:14

[Jimbeaux]

Bing o said:

I'd rather the UK as a society dealt with why people feel the need to commit property crime in the first place and dealt with that.

Classic!! Thanks Bing O, you have made my day with that one.