Another Famine in Africa

[dudleybloke]

MartyPubes said:

One I'd like to put to the PHers who seem far more knowledgeable on the subject than I - why is it that many of the other ex-European colonies are now decidedly second world, with economies which are now seen as future threats to Europe and the U.S? South American and South East Asian countries, which on paper have similar problems to African ones, have developed so well and so quickly, whilst Africans seem to be worse off than pre-independence.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems of corruption/poverty/poor education in these other regions, but they at least seem able to feed themselves and to function as a country, even if some individuals are left behind.

im thinking the same as you.
this might seem contravertial but it seem that wherever there are groups of people of african decent they allways seem to be on the bottom rung.
look at south america, several races (indiginous, latin, white and black) and the poorest people are of african decent.
even in the uk they have dropped well behind more recent asian immigrants in terms of education and business accumen.

thing is its not that way on an individual basis,
individuals, specialy those who try and fit in to their addopted communities do well but the ones who live in self imposed ghettos seem to resent education and how an economy works.

theres also a big victim complex where they think its the world against them but its them going against the ways of the world.

other formerly third world countries look at what we have and want to emulate it while africa seems to want the world to build their civilisation for them.

ok, they took some st off us a long long time ago but name a country that hasnt been invaded by another nation.

i truely believe that unless africa changes from the inside we are wasting our time and money.

[Fer]

XJSJohn said:

My Mum was born in the 1930's and can remember "collecting pennies for the starving black children" when she was going to school in rural ireland!

My parents say the same thing. It was always "bring a penny to school", and that was 60 years ago.

I think throwing money at the problem for food is not helping anyone, especially if the population keeps growing to take up the slack. The only answer is to address the educational needs, and look at the problem in a different way.

I don't have any solutions, but I think the whole "Make Bono History" is the wrong thing to do.

[scottdav]

MartyPubes said:

One I'd like to put to the PHers who seem far more knowledgeable on the subject than I - why is it that many of the other ex-European colonies are now decidedly second world, with economies which are now seen as future threats to Europe and the U.S? South American and South East Asian countries, which on paper have similar problems to African ones, have developed so well and so quickly, whilst Africans seem to be worse off than pre-independence.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems of corruption/poverty/poor education in these other regions, but they at least seem able to feed themselves and to function as a country, even if some individuals are left behind.

They often use our older technologies combined with cheaper labor to produce things we don't want to or have lower profit margins. They export in mass quantities for low profit but it's still bringing in a considerable amount of money for them. Like how China sets up massive new cities just for people to work in textile factories, we're past that stage.

The richer places like UK/USA go for high tech industries such as military items, BAE makes more money for this country than anyone else for example. Also the higher education and economically important companies like banks want to be in the same places as the main stock exchanges, universities etc.

If Africa could suddenly send everyone for extensive schooling, open banks offering better interest rates than ours and produce jets better than ours for half the price they'd be sorted in no time, if their government wasn't corrupt obviously. That's a simple explanation.

[MX7]

scottdav said:

If Africa could suddenly send everyone for extensive schooling, open banks offering better interest rates than ours and produce jets better than ours for half the price they'd be sorted in no time, if their government wasn't corrupt obviously. That's a simple explanation.

It is, isn't it.

[MartyPubes]

scottdav said:

They often use our older technologies combined with cheaper labor to produce things we don't want to or have lower profit margins. They export in mass quantities for low profit but it's still bringing in a considerable amount of money for them. Like how China sets up massive new cities just for people to work in textile factories, we're past that stage.

The richer places like UK/USA go for high tech industries such as military items, BAE makes more money for this country than anyone else for example. Also the higher education and economically important companies like banks want to be in the same places as the main stock exchanges, universities etc.

If Africa could suddenly send everyone for extensive schooling, open banks offering better interest rates than ours and produce jets better than ours for half the price they'd be sorted in no time, if their government wasn't corrupt obviously. That's a simple explanation.

I realise what they could do, and what lots of emerging economies are doing. The question is, since many of them are ex-colonies, why have they flourished whilst a whole continent has floundered? If it's endemic corruption, why isn't it as endemic elsewhere?

Edit: Ignoring China - I'm no expert but I'm led to believe the prevailing 'For China' culture there makes it tailor made for economic growth.

[jbi]

MartyPubes said:

I realise what they could do, and what lots of emerging economies are doing. The question is, since many of them are ex-colonies, why have they flourished whilst a whole continent has floundered? If it's endemic corruption, why isn't it as endemic elsewhere?

Culture

Tribalism plays a big part and is a good reason why the middle east is also in a shambles.

There are African success stories such as Botswana

[AndrewW-G]

MartyPubes said:

I realise what they could do, and what lots of emerging economies are doing. The question is, since many of them are ex-colonies, why have they flourished whilst a whole continent has floundered? If it's endemic corruption, why isn't it as endemic elsewhere? .

India like China, has a highly educated and enlightened past as well as a less tribal hierarchy. Africa may be the craddle of life, but it's always been an uneducated sthole

[DamienB]

China may well be the best thing that's ever happened to Africa. Their ever increasing influence there can hardly make things worse, and they certainly play the long game.

[F93]

Africa needs help, but we never give it properly. And yes, we're the ones who have to help in most cases, or China's just gonna get there first.

First off, Ethiopia is lush compared to most Sahelian countries, thus when the harvest is good, there is plenty of food. Therefore, the population can grow quickly. This is why it's doubled since 84. Earlier someone said 'well there's the reason, too many people'. Well no, they could be a pretty hefty food exporter if they wanted to, because of their abundant water supplies (Albeit very mountainous rugged terrain). But, they are dirt poor. So, they have a decent agricultural potential, but can't do anything with it. Ever seen anything ever about anything to do with Africa? Earning $2+ a day is paramount to being middle class. Thus most of Africa's farms (outside South Africa as well as, formerly, Zimbabwe) are literally, medieval style, peasant growing. No machines, no irrigation, perhaps a bit of animal dung as a measly fertilizer.

So, they can't feed anyone. But, they need money. Hmm how to get money? Wait a minute, because there is absolutely no machinery in their country, they need masses of people to pick crops. So what do they do? Oh of course! They have lots of children so they can send them to the fields to earn about 10 cents more a day from picking coffee. Sounds awfully familiar to what the UK populace did in the early 1800s, 11 children to send to work in the cotton mills?

What Africa is stuck in is a cycle of poverty. Africans don't really spend much on coffee do they, they can hardly buy any food. So Ethiopia has to sell it all to rich European countries or the US. But, what does the EU do? Whack on a massive tariff, to protect the European coffee growing industry (which doesn't exist, but the common external tariff is supposedly a good thing). This means that the price of coffee is high in Europe, so coffee sellers can make a nice profit. But, in Ethiopia, it's dirt cheap, as the wholesalers buy it through a massive value-added chain that means the artificially high prices never go back to Ethiopia. So, there's never any decent profit in coffee. Do something else perhaps? No, because you can't read or write, and have no skills, likely never even left your village. So, you go work on a farm and live on subsistence. No money for school books for your kids, but if they go work in the fields (Where there is always work because there are no machines to make it more efficient) you can get just a tiny bit extra to support your family. But, oh dear, you have no access to contraception, and have too many kids. Or perhaps, your wife and daughters are raped and you or them die of AIDS.

This means no skills means no skills which means no money in the country which means no decent growth. That means no development, and all that EU and US aid money starts to just become part of the cycle. Sure, a well here and few jabs there help, but as is common knowledge, a lot of it gets filtered away by corrupt officials. Why are they corrupt? They don't care about their country, because it doesn't stand for anything, because frankly, its a piece of crap. When have you heard of Chad or Niger? Precisely. Your country is a massive expanse of pointless desert with a narrow strip of fertile land on a river that flows to Nigeria. Why the hell should you feel any commitment to your country? That's what I think goes through perhaps some of their minds, at least subconsciously or something. Prosperity doesn't neccessairly stop corruption, I mean in Italy it's practically cultural, but i'm sure of a lot of places its because they feel their country isn't worth their time, they'd rather take the money and go live in a Western country during a comfortable retirement.

[Otispunkmeyer]

bmw535i said:

I spent several months in Africa last year and to say there has been a drought for two years is utter bks. I have never seen rain like it in my life. The problem is there are no catchment areas.

This may sound very harsh, but the people are corrupt at every level, they have come to rely far too heavily on handouts, they are inherently lazy, uneducated and with a complete lack of purpose to improve their way of life.

I have seen children begging with some horrific injuries inflicted by their own parents so that they will get more money. The children are taken out of school to go and beg off white tourists. The crime is on a scale you would not be able to comprehend. I could go on........

I came to have a deep distrust of most of them and was fully justified in this view.

Can agree with that. Spent a few months in south Africa. I know its not deepest Africa and a lot of places are well developed and safe places to be, the native folk really don't help themselves IMO.

[Otispunkmeyer]

arguti said:

You only have to look at more "successful" African states such South Africa. HIV continues to kill just short of around 1000 people a day whilst the previous health minister denied its very existence and suggested lemon juice, beetroot and garlic to cure it and the self same government that prosecutes doctors for even putting HIV as contributory cause of death on a birth certificate. similar problems with their hydroelectric/nuclear power and energy infrastructure which is extremely poorly managed.

Lets talk about Zimbabwe which, prior to independence was a net exported of food to surrounding states and now has widespread starvation largely precipitated by seizing white owned farms and re-distributing to Mugabe cronies. there have been numerous examples of dairy farms being seized and within 48 hours, all cattle being killed for meat and then there is no milk...go figure.

Was it Jacob zuma ( current president) who said you can wash aids off in the shower? Dumb ass.

I have to ask where commodities speculation comes into this. Surely it's the bods coining it in off the back of speculation about base food prices that's causing basic things like grain to cost so much.?

[OdramaSwimLaden]

jbi said:

MartyPubes said:

I realise what they could do, and what lots of emerging economies are doing. The question is, since many of them are ex-colonies, why have they flourished whilst a whole continent has floundered? If it's endemic corruption, why isn't it as endemic elsewhere?

Culture

Tribalism plays a big part and is a good reason why the middle east is also in a shambles.

There are African success stories such as Botswana

True; but Botswana's population is something like 25% the size of London's population.

In car terms it's like saying that we need not worry anymore about CO2 from car exhausts because Pagani is going all electric.

[OdramaSwimLaden]

DamienB said:

China may well be the best thing that's ever happened to Africa. Their ever increasing influence there can hardly make things worse, and they certainly play the long game.

I work a lot in Africa (from Morocco to South Africa) and the general feeling towards the Chinese is one of outright hatred. Sure they bring money in, but they supply their own workforce, tools, cars and infrastructure (they are the new Europeans!!)

The only people who benefit are the politicians, mine owners etc,etc......the African man on the street dislikes the Chinese.

[zollburgers]

eldar said:

If the dosh was used to educate women, rather than buy goodies for the 'leaders', the problem would be well on the way to solving in a generation. Things change once women learn to use contraception as tool.

Your solution to world hunger is girl power? To put it simply (although the lyrics won't rhyme) there are too many people there, there are not the resources to support all of them. Perhaps Gerry Halliwell could sort it but I think the problem is that there are too many people there?

[MartyPubes]

OdramaSwimLaden said:

DamienB said:

China may well be the best thing that's ever happened to Africa. Their ever increasing influence there can hardly make things worse, and they certainly play the long game.

I work a lot in Africa (from Morocco to South Africa) and the general feeling towards the Chinese is one of outright hatred. Sure they bring money in, but they supply their own workforce, tools, cars and infrastructure (they are the new Europeans!!)

The only people who benefit are the politicians, mine owners etc,etc......the African man on the street dislikes the Chinese.

I was going to say. I imagine the Chinese are the Europeans without the 'we were mean to the black people' guilt. From the little I've heard they're going in, getting the natural resources out of the ground, and fk the Africans.

[Bing o]

MartyPubes said:

OdramaSwimLaden said:

DamienB said:

China may well be the best thing that's ever happened to Africa. Their ever increasing influence there can hardly make things worse, and they certainly play the long game.

I work a lot in Africa (from Morocco to South Africa) and the general feeling towards the Chinese is one of outright hatred. Sure they bring money in, but they supply their own workforce, tools, cars and infrastructure (they are the new Europeans!!)

The only people who benefit are the politicians, mine owners etc,etc......the African man on the street dislikes the Chinese.

I was going to say. I imagine the Chinese are the Europeans without the 'we were mean to the black people' guilt. From the little I've heard they're going in, getting the natural resources out of the ground, and fk the Africans.

Yes, basically. The Chinese will use the locals as slave labour, ship it out of Africa and send it back to China. Hence why they've been helping the Burmese and Vietnamese to build deep harbours so they can step away from going via HK and Singapore.

[grantone]

MartyPubes said:

One I'd like to put to the PHers who seem far more knowledgeable on the subject than I - why is it that many of the other ex-European colonies are now decidedly second world, with economies which are now seen as future threats to Europe and the U.S? South American and South East Asian countries, which on paper have similar problems to African ones, have developed so well and so quickly, whilst Africans seem to be worse off than pre-independence.

I'm not suggesting that there aren't problems of corruption/poverty/poor education in these other regions, but they at least seem able to feed themselves and to function as a country, even if some individuals are left behind.

My view is that an awful lot of sub-saharan Africa is actually pretty lush, the people living there didn't really need to develop the societies and technologies that other parts of the world required to survive. When your belly is easily filled with hunter-gatherer techniques and you're not cold, the need to innovate is not there. Asia and South America were not quite so welcoming, so you got a spur for the development of civilisations; Aztec, Mayan, Chinese, etc... The affects of those ancient civilisations linger a long time in customs, attitude and morality.

The other thing I would say is that a broad brush across a whole continent can be a bit misleading. The better managed countries are starting to get their act together and implement the infrastructure needed to develop and flourish. Roads, deep water ports, universities, a free press, independent judicial systems; these are all things that take a long time to establish when a lot of African countries are only just getting rid of their first or second post-colonial leaders.

[Bill]

Very interesting article here: http://www.odihpn.org/report.asp?id=2644

There was also a famine in central America around September 2001, other events meant the papers weren't interested.

[XJSJohn]

But Tonker, for Africa that IS a success story ......

[Zwoelf]

zollburgers said:

eldar said:

If the dosh was used to educate women, rather than buy goodies for the 'leaders', the problem would be well on the way to solving in a generation. Things change once women learn to use contraception as tool.

Your solution to world hunger is girl power? To put it simply (although the lyrics won't rhyme) there are too many people there, there are not the resources to support all of them. Perhaps Gerry Halliwell could sort it but I think the problem is that there are too many people there?

In which case, what eldar said makes sense to a very large degree - given that the alternative methods of population reduction all arriving by increasing the death rate rather than reducing the birth rate, which leaves the attrition caused by famine, AIDS/other disease or simply good old-fashioned civil war and/or genocide.

It may not have been a case of population control either, but the part about things changing once women can control their fertility changing society - the pill certainly changed the structure of society in this developed and "cvilised" country did it not? I don't see why applying that same approach couldn't yield significant change in a less developed nation, where whilst every child may bring in more income to the family, it's also another mouth to feed. That's a part of a cycle and pattern of thought and behaviour that needs to change, alongside dealing with the problems of infrastructure and corrupt leaders using state coffers as their personal bank accounts.