James Webb space telescope getting axed?
Discussion
Andy Zarse said:
Nonsense. For every item of technology you cite, there are thousands that have been developed without recourse to space programs. All those things would arguably have been invented by commercial means in any event.
Nobody has yet ventured any proper answer as to how this telescope will benefit mankind in light of the financial deficit facing the US treasury. If they were awash with cash then maybe, it might be an interesting experiment. You don't swm to understand the desperate financial plight facing the US, unless the debt ceiling is raised public employees wont get paid. It's that bad. And you think they can afford tonwaste money on a bit more star gazing? I despair.
Ps Interesting item on newsnight about private enterprise and space. Puts it in a bit of perspective.
The US supplies their own money, they cannot go bankrupt in the way that you or I can (or Greece). Imagine your househould could print it's own money, you wouldn't ever be worried about going bust?? So long as you spent it properly, and don't suddenly go on a spending spree and cause massive inflation, you're fine.Nobody has yet ventured any proper answer as to how this telescope will benefit mankind in light of the financial deficit facing the US treasury. If they were awash with cash then maybe, it might be an interesting experiment. You don't swm to understand the desperate financial plight facing the US, unless the debt ceiling is raised public employees wont get paid. It's that bad. And you think they can afford tonwaste money on a bit more star gazing? I despair.
Ps Interesting item on newsnight about private enterprise and space. Puts it in a bit of perspective.
Private companies should, and now will, provide the launch services. But a company could never 'sell' what would come from the James Webb telescope, and so rightfully, government science agencies should put up the cash to further our knowledge.
MiniMan64 said:
Andy Zarse said:
No I'm not, I simply cannot see how the US can afford thus sort of thing at the moment. The point is they haven't got any money left, QE3 or not.
Except that they've already spent well over a billion on it and it's due in space in the next few years (probably), bit of a dumbass idea to can it now. Sometimes you've got to think a little longer term. 
Andy Zarse said:
Mojocvh said:
Yes you are.
If you like. Any chance of answering the question in a proper manner?
Thought not.
just saying they can afford wars etc, and the space race gave us cordless drills does not constitute an answer
Andy Zarse said:
Mojocvh said:
Yes you are.
If you like. Any chance of answering the question in a proper manner?
Thought not.
just saying they can afford wars etc, and the space race gave us cordless drills does not constitute an answer
AlfaFoxtrot said:
The US supplies their own money, they cannot go bankrupt in the way that you or I can (or Greece). Imagine your househould could print it's own money, you wouldn't ever be worried about going bust?? So long as you spent it properly, and don't suddenly go on a spending spree and cause massive inflation, you're fine.
I take it this is some sort of wind up?Frankeh said:
You've not replied to a single one of my counter arguments. Hypocrisy much.
You must be blind mate, you need spectacles not a telescope.Andy Zarse said:
Very interesting article, though a little otiose to the question. I want to know what immediate benefits this telescope will give us and why the project can't be mothballed?
Oh and so what if the US GDP is 13tn or whatever, the till is empty, there is NO money left.
Oh and so what if the US GDP is 13tn or whatever, the till is empty, there is NO money left.
Andy Zarse said:
Why? What good does it do when the US Treasury has effectively run out of money and is staring default down the barrel of a gun? If they pay for this, and all the other cushy little timeserving jobs at NASA, what should they cut instead (on top of the cuts that are already coming). Schools, hospitals, cancer research? What?
I've always thought astrology is a complete waste of money. It's an interesting enough diversion or hobby I suppose but nobody has ever managed to explain to me how it's going to benefit mankind. Who cares a fig about the moon around uranus (your anus, geddit?) when the alternative is immediate fiscal and economic meltdown?
Idiot, completely!I've always thought astrology is a complete waste of money. It's an interesting enough diversion or hobby I suppose but nobody has ever managed to explain to me how it's going to benefit mankind. Who cares a fig about the moon around uranus (your anus, geddit?) when the alternative is immediate fiscal and economic meltdown?
scottdav said:
Well, considering the amount of demand for Hubble I'm pretty sure they could allow access to this thing for an astronomical 
price negating most of its costs. Saying space programs are useless is similar (tiny scale compared though) to the people who say F1 is useless ignoring all the benefits we get from people pushing boundaries of what is possible.
Anyone think this could be a religious thing? Last thing they want is Americas own flagship company saying 'this is exactly how/when/where the universe started' for many reasons. Could also be a case of 'what could we cut where there will be public outrage or someone else will just give us the money anyway'. They're my cynical thoughts for the day.
So far as I am aware F1 is not subsidised from the public purse to the tune of billions. Major manufacturers treat it, partly, as their R&D budget. price negating most of its costs. Saying space programs are useless is similar (tiny scale compared though) to the people who say F1 is useless ignoring all the benefits we get from people pushing boundaries of what is possible. Anyone think this could be a religious thing? Last thing they want is Americas own flagship company saying 'this is exactly how/when/where the universe started' for many reasons. Could also be a case of 'what could we cut where there will be public outrage or someone else will just give us the money anyway'. They're my cynical thoughts for the day.
Andy Zarse said:
stew-S160 said:
Idiot, completely!
Tell that to Russell Grant!Hook line and sinker, it works on some idiot every single time!
Anyway, you're absolutely 100% missing the point of the telescope and I really hope there aren't people like you sitting in congress because if there is we're f
ked. Oh and you didn't have a rebuttal for the research that showed for ever 1$ spent on the apollo missions 14$ went back into the US economy.. But you'd obviously ignore research that doesn't fit into your extremely narrow minded view.
Do yourself a favour and watch this TED talk by Brian Cox.
http://www.ted.com/talks/brian_cox_why_we_need_the...
Pretty futile posting that link as there's fat all chance you're even interested in this subject beyond getting some people on a forum riled up. Troll.
Here's an interesting read about technology commissioned/invented by NASA that you could well own or have owned:
http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/transportatio...
Because I doubt you click links, here you go:
10:Invisible Braces
9:Scratch-resistant Lenses
8:Memory Foam
7:Ear Thermometer
6:Shoe Insoles
5:Long-distance Telecommunications
4:Adjustable Smoke Detector
3:Safety Grooving (saves god knows how many lives on the roads)
2:Cordless Tools
1:Water Filters
And that's just 10 easily recognisable ones.
Sure, maybe some of this stuff would have come around eventually, but who wants eventually? Personally I'd rather have the gadgets I have now, now. Not in 10 years time.
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spin-off
That's a good list of things NASA has helped with.. I'd rather have those things than not.
http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/transportatio...
Because I doubt you click links, here you go:
10:Invisible Braces
9:Scratch-resistant Lenses
8:Memory Foam
7:Ear Thermometer
6:Shoe Insoles
5:Long-distance Telecommunications
4:Adjustable Smoke Detector
3:Safety Grooving (saves god knows how many lives on the roads)
2:Cordless Tools
1:Water Filters
And that's just 10 easily recognisable ones.
Sure, maybe some of this stuff would have come around eventually, but who wants eventually? Personally I'd rather have the gadgets I have now, now. Not in 10 years time.
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spin-off
That's a good list of things NASA has helped with.. I'd rather have those things than not.
Edited by Frankeh on Friday 8th July 10:08
I'm not so sure a venture that returns a profit directly into the economy could be called a luxury, especially as you seem keen to point out, when the monetary pot is running dry. Surely that would be classed as a neccessity?
Spend a little now to gain a lot later. Ultimately you can't put a price on the value that the James Webb telescope will add as much of the technology it will influence will be evolutionary, rather than revolutionary. That isn't to say there won't be breakthroughs, I've no doubt that there will be. There will be instruments on board that do a whole lot more than simply look at the stars.
Finally, I don't buy the "there's no money left" argument either. If there were no money left, and nothing to be added as you say, congress wouldn't be lopping $1.6bn off the budget; they would can the whole bloody lot.
Spend a little now to gain a lot later. Ultimately you can't put a price on the value that the James Webb telescope will add as much of the technology it will influence will be evolutionary, rather than revolutionary. That isn't to say there won't be breakthroughs, I've no doubt that there will be. There will be instruments on board that do a whole lot more than simply look at the stars.
Finally, I don't buy the "there's no money left" argument either. If there were no money left, and nothing to be added as you say, congress wouldn't be lopping $1.6bn off the budget; they would can the whole bloody lot.
Ok I've watched the Cox video, he's a good speaker, passionate on his subject and entertaining too. But really it's complete flannel.
Your list above are all things that would/could arguably have been invented by private enterprise. Not to mention the latest gee whizz idea of drinking recycled piss, why on eartyh would anyone other than Lord Nuffield want to do that? Anyway, the secrets of recycled piss drinking were discovered years ago by the makers of Carling lager.
At what point did I ever say that space travel research was all money wasted? I never did, but I think several posters here are so keen to very obviously conflate the arguement.
To clarify, I am questioning the immediate benefits of the new telescope in light of the financial meltdown the US is facing. They're bust, and to state they can go on printing money for ever and a day is economic luddism at its most boorish level, as head shakingly stupid as confusing astrology and astronomy. Sure, in good days such research might be desirable and enlightening, but what I want is an absolutely compelling case for it's continuation in the present straightened times. And why would a few years delay until the financial problems are resolved be a bad thing?
We can go on trading insults all day if you like, but it doesn't get us anywhere.
Your list above are all things that would/could arguably have been invented by private enterprise. Not to mention the latest gee whizz idea of drinking recycled piss, why on eartyh would anyone other than Lord Nuffield want to do that? Anyway, the secrets of recycled piss drinking were discovered years ago by the makers of Carling lager.
At what point did I ever say that space travel research was all money wasted? I never did, but I think several posters here are so keen to very obviously conflate the arguement.
To clarify, I am questioning the immediate benefits of the new telescope in light of the financial meltdown the US is facing. They're bust, and to state they can go on printing money for ever and a day is economic luddism at its most boorish level, as head shakingly stupid as confusing astrology and astronomy. Sure, in good days such research might be desirable and enlightening, but what I want is an absolutely compelling case for it's continuation in the present straightened times. And why would a few years delay until the financial problems are resolved be a bad thing?
We can go on trading insults all day if you like, but it doesn't get us anywhere.
Well, looking up has meant we have learned a bit about what passes us and some point it may well save us. I would say the continuation of the species should we be able to prevent that impact would be well worth the coin paid. Even survival after such and event could be derived from space exploration if we got on with it.
I think I'm going to have to agree with Andy.
I can see there have been benefits to space, both monitarily and socially.
But I don't think, gadget wise, any of it has been life altering.
Scratch resistant lenses and memory foam matresses are not something, as a race, we couldn't live without.
I used to be all fired up about space exploration when I was younger, but the older I get I realise it, like pretty much everything else, is a waste of time and money.
There will be no grand space exploration because no one will pay for it. And thats what it comes down to in the end. No one can afford it, or wants to.
And while there a people in the world dying for lack of food and water I think we should look closer to home when it comes to allocating funds.
I can see there have been benefits to space, both monitarily and socially.
But I don't think, gadget wise, any of it has been life altering.
Scratch resistant lenses and memory foam matresses are not something, as a race, we couldn't live without.
I used to be all fired up about space exploration when I was younger, but the older I get I realise it, like pretty much everything else, is a waste of time and money.
There will be no grand space exploration because no one will pay for it. And thats what it comes down to in the end. No one can afford it, or wants to.
And while there a people in the world dying for lack of food and water I think we should look closer to home when it comes to allocating funds.
cazzer said:
I used to be all fired up about space exploration when I was younger, but the older I get I realise it, like pretty much everything else, is a waste of time and money.
Complaining that space travel is a waste of money. cazzer said:
There will be no grand space exploration because no one will pay for it. And thats what it comes down to in the end. No one can afford it, or wants to.
Complaining that people think space travel is a waste of money. Whatthef*ckamireading.
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