F-35B / Marines 1st Media Launch

[Roberty]

Mikeyboy said:

Ooh yes, more preserved than I thought. I looked it up. As you were then. Still, I don't think we would ever have had the numbers of the GR9s to interest the USMC.

I think there were 140 UK Harrier II's in total so somewhere south of that by now.

How many F-35B's are they after?

Mix between F/A-18E/F Super Hornets to replace there ageing F/A-18C/D Hornets onboard the big Carriers and AV-8B's and B+(our old GR-9's) on the amphibious assualt ships.

If they are still short on numbers for the amphibious assualt ships build it up with there new AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters although why they didn't navalise the Apache like we did i don't know?

[Mikeyboy]

Roberty said:

I think there were 140 UK Harrier II's in total so somewhere south of that by now.

How many F-35B's are they after?

Mix between F/A-18E/F Super Hornets to replace there ageing F/A-18C/D Hornets onboard the big Carriers and AV-8B's and B+(our old GR-9's) on the amphibious assualt ships.

If they are still short on numbers for the amphibious assualt ships build it up with there new AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters although why they didn't navalise the Apache like we did i don't know?

398 (why they idn't want a round 400 is anyones guess)
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009...
I think the reasons for not ordering the F18E/fs is because the USDoD has a bt of an obsession with stealth right now and the Super Hornet doesn't have that. Oh and the F35 is a shiny new toy and that always appeals over a shiny "old" toy.

[Caulkhead]

Now that the navalised version of the Typhoon is finished and being offered to India and our upcoming carriers are designed to accept a catapult, what do you think the odds of us cancelling F35 orders completely and sticking Typhoons in their place is?

http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/Cont...

[Mikeyboy]

Caulkhead said:

Now that the navalised version of the Typhoon is finished and being offered to India and our upcoming carriers are designed to accept a catapult, what do you think the odds of us cancelling F35 orders completely and sticking Typhoons in their place is?

http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/Cont...

I suspect we are more likely to order the Rafale in the case of cancelling the F35 order to be honest. Its smaller, cheaper and already has proven capability with our new naval partners, the French.

[Roberty]

Caulkhead said:

Now that the navalised version of the Typhoon is finished and being offered to India and our upcoming carriers are designed to accept a catapult, what do you think the odds of us cancelling F35 orders completely and sticking Typhoons in their place is?

http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/Cont...

They may have proposed a Naval Typhoon but they haven't actually built one.

I can't see the UK going for these, I think we've already lost enough money on this particular aircraft.


I'd prefer to see Super Hornets on our carriers but the Rafale would be a good alternative.

[Caulkhead]

Roberty said:

Caulkhead said:

Now that the navalised version of the Typhoon is finished and being offered to India and our upcoming carriers are designed to accept a catapult, what do you think the odds of us cancelling F35 orders completely and sticking Typhoons in their place is?

http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/Cont...

They may have proposed a Naval Typhoon but they haven't actually built one.

I can't see the UK going for these, I think we've already lost enough money on this particular aircraft.


I'd prefer to see Super Hornets on our carriers but the Rafale would be a good alternative.

Buying abroad may be increasingly difficult and the commonality of parts, systems and training would greatly favour the Typhoon. The ability to amortise some of the existing costs against Typhoon might also be appealing to a govt that wants to appear frugal and supportive of UK jobs.

Also, sharing naval assets with the French was dropped as a bad idea last year wasn't it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11176489

[badgers_back]

Caulkhead said:

Now that the navalised version of the Typhoon is finished and being offered to India and our upcoming carriers are designed to accept a catapult, what do you think the odds of us cancelling F35 orders completely and sticking Typhoons in their place is?

http://www.eurofighter.com/fileadmin/web_data/Cont...

Like they will buy it.....

BAE overseas sales go something like this:-

1) UK MOD pay all the development and extortionate 1st run costs.

2) Cheap copies get built for overseas...

That's not the case in this one.

No way would the Indians put up with how much BAE will want to design and build a sea going version.

[Mikeyboy]

Caulkhead said:

Buying abroad may be increasingly difficult and the commonality of parts, systems and training would greatly favour the Typhoon. The ability to amortise some of the existing costs against Typhoon might also be appealing to a govt that wants to appear frugal and supportive of UK jobs.

Also, sharing naval assets with the French was dropped as a bad idea last year wasn't it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11176489

Buying the Typhoon is buying abroad. Its only partly made here, with other parts made in GER, ITA and ESP.
We haven't made a front line combat aircraft in over 40 years so I'm a bit lost in what you see the diffulties other options would present.
For one thing the Typhoon as a unit cost is far too expensive to be any better an option than the F35 and by the time it is finished probably no more useful for the role either.
The only real options out there for many buyers of the F35 including but not exclusive to, the RN, are the Rafale, Gripen and F18E. Unless you want to buy Russian of course.

[Roberty]

Caulkhead said:

Buying abroad may be increasingly difficult and the commonality of parts, systems and training would greatly favour the Typhoon. The ability to amortise some of the existing costs against Typhoon might also be appealing to a govt that wants to appear frugal and supportive of UK jobs.

Hornets could be built under license which would support UK jobs with out us having to develop something that's already available for half the cost from somewhere else.

Commonality might be good but putting all your eggs in one basket isn't!

If the Typhoon was ever grounded due to faults found like the F-15 was or the F-35 and the F-22 currently are we'd be screwed!

And the F-35 is also being bought from abroad and being built under license.

And worse still we are having to pay the Americans to develop it for us as well as paying BAE to develop our own Avionics, madness

[Roberty]

Mikeyboy said:

The only real options out there for many buyers of the F35 including but not exclusive to, the RN, are the Rafale, Gripen and F18E. Unless you want to buy Russian of course.

Good point and as great as the Gripen is it's not really in the same league as the Super Hornet and Rafale.

The Gripen is a light day fighter where as the others are true multi-role aircraft.

Also there isn't a Navalised Gripen yet either! Nor does it even have Air to Air refueling!

[Mikeyboy]

Roberty said:

Good point and as great as the Gripen is it's not really in the same league as the Super Hornet and Rafale.

The Gripen is a light day fighter where as the others are true multi-role aircraft.

Also there isn't a Navalised Gripen yet either! Nor does it even have Air to Air refueling!

other buyers in Europe are growing less keen on the F35 of any variant, it is costing too much and the versions they are getting won't be comparable to the US anyway, despite having paid for some of the development.
This means that the likes of the Dutch who need to replace their f16s at some point will see the Gripen as a credible alternative.
I bet SAAB can't believe their luck either, when they launched the Gripen it was almost in advance of anything else but the airfleets were all pretty new and the orders just weren't there. Then the Typhoon took forever to get into service and hasn't been the runaway success that many would have expected and so SAAB are back in the picture.

[Roberty]

Mikeyboy said:

I bet SAAB can't believe their luck either, when they launched the Gripen it was almost in advance of anything else but the airfleets were all pretty new and the orders just weren't there. Then the Typhoon took forever to get into service and hasn't been the runaway success that many would have expected and so SAAB are back in the picture.

It's a credible F-16 replacement and it's cheap too, as fighters go.

As you say the Gripen NG could well be mopping up orders from those that lose faith in the F-35 programme, be it due to cost or lateness of delivery.

Would have made a good addition to the RAF as a Harrier/Jaguar replacement, if we'd still had Harrier's/Jaguars to replace!

[Mikeyboy]

Roberty said:

It's a credible F-16 replacement and it's cheap too, as fighters go.

As you say the Gripen NG could well be mopping up orders from those that lose faith in the F-35 programme, be it due to cost or lateness of delivery.

Would have made a good addition to the RAF as a Harrier/Jaguar replacement, if we'd still had Harrier's/Jaguars to replace!

You never know, good things come to those who wait.
At some point someone in the MOD is going to realise that we no longer can do the one thing our aircraft actually do in the wars we are involved in and as yet the UAVs out there aren't quite as capable as a light strike fighter. SAAB may well get some exports to the UK.
Though I wouldn't bet my house on it.

[Oily Nails]

Roberty said:

Nor does it even have Air to Air refueling!

The "C" variant used by the Hungarians does have air-to-air refueling

[Roberty]

Oily Nails said:

The "C" variant used by the Hungarians does have air-to-air refueling

So it does!

Strange they had to get the design modified to have it included, would have thought it a base requirement these days.

[Oily Nails]

I guess when you expect to be defending your homeland from a vastly larger enemy you don't plan on doing many deep penetration strikes....so no need for the added complexity/weight just focus on speed/agility/servicability

[Mikeyboy]

This is interesting:
taken from the Wikipedia article about the Gripen so it may not be entirely accurate but it does hint that someone in the MoD is not as sure about the F35 for the navy as they were in October last year.
Oh and I also notice the Empire test school uses an early variant for training.


United Kingdom
Following a meeting with Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials in May 2011, Saab agreed to establish a development centre in the UK to expand on the Sea Gripen concept. Saab chief executive Håkan Buskhe stated: "The MoD is looking for competition". The decision to proceed to a flight demonstrator will be made in late 2012

I'm reading more and more articles that keep saying that the F35 project should be cut or at least pared back so dramatically that I think there is a plan to kill this project by 2012. And the people saying it aren't ney sayers either but senior officials and ex airmen.

[Roberty]

Mikeyboy said:

I'm reading more and more articles that keep saying that the F35 project should be cut or at least pared back so dramatically that I think there is a plan to kill this project by 2012. And the people saying it aren't ney sayers either but senior officials and ex airmen.

Why do we always get caught up in these doomed, over running and over budget projects?

About time we stepped back and bought these things out of the showroom rather than off the spec sheet, I know it's all about creating UK job's but other than the few employed in the field surely the UK as a whole would be far better off if we just license built proven designs.

What's the bet we'll pull out of the F-35 project before the Yanks can it themselves and no doubt it will be at some vast additional cost to the UK tax payer on top of what we've already ploughed in to it.

Then we'll probably go and offer to bank roll the R&D on the SeaGripen before canning it too and buying the F/A-18E/F's we should have gone for from the start!

[Mikeyboy]

Sadly for the taxpayer Roberty, i feel you may be right.