Sharia Law taking precedence in the UK? Fact or Fiction.
Discussion
Apache said:
Countdown said:
if you could give an example of indulging or appeasement I'd be happy to discuss. As I mentioned earlier I'm not aware of rules/policies/whatever being changed at the behest of immigrants against the wishes of a majority of the indigenous community.
I think you're looking at it in a black and white sense CD, in my opinion he's describing more of a creeping awareness of change such as streets full of immigrant shops with foreign signs, Mosques springing up, official documents in a variety of languages, the hijab. That sort of thingThe things you have mentioned are not illegal and do not impact negatively on the indigenous community (IMO)
Countdown said:
Apache said:
Countdown said:
if you could give an example of indulging or appeasement I'd be happy to discuss. As I mentioned earlier I'm not aware of rules/policies/whatever being changed at the behest of immigrants against the wishes of a majority of the indigenous community.
I think you're looking at it in a black and white sense CD, in my opinion he's describing more of a creeping awareness of change such as streets full of immigrant shops with foreign signs, Mosques springing up, official documents in a variety of languages, the hijab. That sort of thingThe things you have mentioned are not illegal and do not impact negatively on the indigenous community (IMO)
mrmr96 said:
Congrats to Carmonk and Countdown - that truly was a masterclass in using the quotes system. Well done to both players. 
Indeed, its been an interesting and level headed debate too. These topics normally turn into a childish slanging match. On the contrary it's been a good read here.As I understand it (having only yesterday been to a lecture on this by a British lawyer who works in Iraq) one issue with Sharia law is that there are many interpretations of what it is.
As an analogy he used the example of asking the churches what law based on the Bible would look like. Homosexuality? Role of women? Forgiveness? Justice? There'd be a lot of different views.
Would all the laws apply only to Muslims?
Which laws would aplly to those of other faiths or none?
The status of women would be something of an issue in UK law as compared to Sharia-with the possibility of polygamy for starters.
As an analogy he used the example of asking the churches what law based on the Bible would look like. Homosexuality? Role of women? Forgiveness? Justice? There'd be a lot of different views.
Would all the laws apply only to Muslims?
Which laws would aplly to those of other faiths or none?
The status of women would be something of an issue in UK law as compared to Sharia-with the possibility of polygamy for starters.
standards said:
Would all the laws apply only to Muslims?
Which laws would aplly to those of other faiths or none?
I don't think you could have separate/parallel laws in one jurisdiction. There should only be one law that applies to all. Sticking with current UK law would make far more sense in my opinion as it isn't based on a religion/belief that only part of the population follow.Which laws would aplly to those of other faiths or none?
standards said:
The status of women would be something of an issue in UK law as compared to Sharia-with the possibility of polygamy for starters.
If a person seriously wants several partners that's quite possible under current law, you can live with as many women (or men) as you want, there's no need to actually formally marry them.There's also something of a myth about polygamy in Islam. I know of only two people (in the last 40 years) who have had two wives. In practise its not something most muslims do.
I think we're going to be agreeing with each other on the fasting thread and to a lesser extent on this one!
I agree with you one jurisdiction one law. Wouldn't that argue against sharia in the UK
The partners thing is about security-yes you could have several and they would get no security, whereas if married (civil or religious) there is some level of protection.
You're probably going to ask what is morally superior to having a succession of monogamous (-ish) relationships in the western secular manner rather than being married to more than one woman at once. Good point I'd say
The main thing is that the media have presented Islamic influences as being a threat to the UK culture/heritage such as it is! One element of that is equality. Christianity has moved and is continuing to move in that way, Islam to many UK views is a bit slower.
I agree with you one jurisdiction one law. Wouldn't that argue against sharia in the UK
The partners thing is about security-yes you could have several and they would get no security, whereas if married (civil or religious) there is some level of protection.
You're probably going to ask what is morally superior to having a succession of monogamous (-ish) relationships in the western secular manner rather than being married to more than one woman at once. Good point I'd say
The main thing is that the media have presented Islamic influences as being a threat to the UK culture/heritage such as it is! One element of that is equality. Christianity has moved and is continuing to move in that way, Islam to many UK views is a bit slower.
Victor McDade said:
mrmr96 said:
Congrats to Carmonk and Countdown - that truly was a masterclass in using the quotes system. Well done to both players.
Indeed, its been an interesting and level headed debate too. These topics normally turn into a childish slanging match. On the contrary it's been a good read here..I think especially to Countdown, as I think it is more difficult (IMO) to put forward the Muslim view to many of these debates and I applaud him for doing such a good job.
Quite a relief to read too after Sheeda Pistol's posts on PH.
Countdown said:
There's also something of a myth about polygamy in Islam. I know of only two people (in the last 40 years) who have had two wives. In practise its not something most muslims do.
I think it's pretty common in Saudi. I've a friend in Jeddah who has two, seems to work quite well for him. Keeps all his old cars too, has some nice old Yank metal.Yertis said:
Countdown said:
There's also something of a myth about polygamy in Islam. I know of only two people (in the last 40 years) who have had two wives. In practise its not something most muslims do.
I think it's pretty common in Saudi. I've a friend in Jeddah who has two, seems to work quite well for him. Keeps all his old cars too, has some nice old Yank metal.If the two wives get along, they can establish a formidable 'union'. If they don't, you will constantly be plagued by their mutual suspicions that the other wife is getter a better deal.
FWIW, this guy's wives lived in separate villages and had him in the latter, pincer-type situation.
standards said:
I think we're going to be agreeing with each other on the fasting thread and to a lesser extent on this one!
Not a problem - every day's a school day 
standards said:
I agree with you one jurisdiction one law. Wouldn't that argue against sharia in the UK
Yep - just to clarify I am NOT a fan of Sharia (most muslims in the UK aren't, most muslims worldwide aren't)standards said:
You're probably going to ask what is morally superior to having a succession of monogamous (-ish) relationships in the western secular manner rather than being married to more than one woman at once. Good point I'd say
I wasn't but its a fair point standards said:
The main thing is that the media have presented Islamic influences as being a threat to the UK culture/heritage such as it is! One element of that is equality. Christianity has moved and is continuing to move in that way, Islam to many UK views is a bit slower.
I think you're right. The application of a strict/orthodox/fundamental version of Islam does not fit with western rights and freedoms. But I think it should be clarified that the vast majority of muslims do not live under, or indeed want, a strict/orthodox/fundamental version of Islam. Hope that makes sense.Yertis said:
Countdown said:
There's also something of a myth about polygamy in Islam. I know of only two people (in the last 40 years) who have had two wives. In practise its not something most muslims do.
I think it's pretty common in Saudi. I've a friend in Jeddah who has two, seems to work quite well for him. Keeps all his old cars too, has some nice old Yank metal.ETA the crux of the issue is "afford". Most of us know what it's like trying to keep ONE wife happy. can you imagine how much it would cost when they're trying to compete with each other ?
Edited by Countdown on Wednesday 3rd August 15:55
AJS- said:
The really scary thing would be a British interpretation of Sharia where you get stoned to death for speeding, and Tyler from the council estate has 4 wives and 8 kids all on benefits.
Speeding is not a crime under Sharia and Tyler can have 4 wives/as many children as he wants but he doesn't get any benefits - ever. Consequently only the very rich (such as PH members) can afford to have multiple wives/children.Sharia - what's not to like
(I'm kidding !!!!!)
Babu 01 said:
You do realise that not every brown person reported on the news to have been involved in an "honour killing" is Muslim?
The practice is also unfortunately found within the Sikh and Hindu communities. It is a cancer borne of ethnography rather than theology.
Indeed, it is not a wholly and exclusively Muslim pass time, however, dig into the stats somewhat and you will find that the Muslim community lead the field in this area by a significant and very large margin. Also, something of a speciality for non -brown Muslims as well.The practice is also unfortunately found within the Sikh and Hindu communities. It is a cancer borne of ethnography rather than theology.
Pickled Piper said:
Indeed, it is not a wholly and exclusively Muslim pass time, however, dig into the stats somewhat and you will find that the Muslim community lead the field in this area by a significant and very large margin. Also, something of a speciality for non -brown Muslims as well.
I would have thought that reliable stats on this horrible practice are hard to come by as large numbers of such murders are believed to go unreported.As I understand it India currently has the highest rate of "honour killings" per capita and no such stats are collected there.
http://wwrn.org/articles/33780/
Regardless, I was pointing out that the practice is not one solely limited to Islamic communities and that every time one reads of such a murder one should not automatically assume it involves Muslims.
Babu 01 said:
Pickled Piper said:
Indeed, it is not a wholly and exclusively Muslim pass time, however, dig into the stats somewhat and you will find that the Muslim community lead the field in this area by a significant and very large margin. Also, something of a speciality for non -brown Muslims as well.
I would have thought that reliable stats on this horrible practice are hard to come by as large numbers of such murders are believed to go unreported.As I understand it India currently has the highest rate of "honour killings" per capita and no such stats are collected there.
http://wwrn.org/articles/33780/
Regardless, I was pointing out that the practice is not one solely limited to Islamic communities and that every time one reads of such a murder one should not automatically assume it involves Muslims.
91% perpetrated by Muslim on Muslim according to wikiislam.
pp
Pickled Piper said:
Babu 01 said:
Pickled Piper said:
Indeed, it is not a wholly and exclusively Muslim pass time, however, dig into the stats somewhat and you will find that the Muslim community lead the field in this area by a significant and very large margin. Also, something of a speciality for non -brown Muslims as well.
I would have thought that reliable stats on this horrible practice are hard to come by as large numbers of such murders are believed to go unreported.As I understand it India currently has the highest rate of "honour killings" per capita and no such stats are collected there.
http://wwrn.org/articles/33780/
Regardless, I was pointing out that the practice is not one solely limited to Islamic communities and that every time one reads of such a murder one should not automatically assume it involves Muslims.
91% perpetrated by Muslim on Muslim according to wikiislam.
pp
Countdown said:
AJS- said:
The really scary thing would be a British interpretation of Sharia where you get stoned to death for speeding, and Tyler from the council estate has 4 wives and 8 kids all on benefits.
Speeding is not a crime under Sharia and Tyler can have 4 wives/as many children as he wants but he doesn't get any benefits - ever. Consequently only the very rich (such as PH members) can afford to have multiple wives/children.Sharia - what's not to like
(I'm kidding !!!!!)
I don't think stoning to death would be severe or sadistic enough for many.
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