Sharia Law taking precedence in the UK? Fact or Fiction.

[Raja]

Honour killings have nothing to do with Islam in my experience. I know of a number of childhood friends and neighbours that used to be tied up and beaten because of who they were having relationships with. I've also known in passing victims of this disgusting crime. Each time it's been more to do with bringing shame and dishonour rather than using quotes from the Koran as justification. Admittedly it is also about the inequality of women in these communities.

[carmonk]

Raja said:

Honour killings have nothing to do with Islam in my experience. I know of a number of childhood friends and neighbours that used to be tied up and beaten because of who they were having relationships with.

So how does that prove it? What about the 91% correlation between Islam and honour killings posted earlier?

Another example of tolerance from the religion of peace, this time in 'defence' of some other family's 'honour'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2022326/Fa...

[Mikeyboy]

Raja said:

Honour killings have nothing to do with Islam in my experience. I know of a number of childhood friends and neighbours that used to be tied up and beaten because of who they were having relationships with. I've also known in passing victims of this disgusting crime. Each time it's been more to do with bringing shame and dishonour rather than using quotes from the Koran as justification. Admittedly it is also about the inequality of women in these communities.

Absolutely. I think there are large parts of any religion where local tradition gets confused with the rules of the faith, both inside and outside.
honour killings are more a tribal hangover than an article of islam.

though I have to say, any society that thinks that killing a relative is preferable to them being happy wih someone they love needs to take a long hard look at its value systems.

[Raja]

The motivation for the killings isn't through Islamic teachings but rather a cultural practice. Honour killings are a feature of certain South Asian communities in the UK and the underlying factors why they take place are identical whether it be a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.

To give a Christian comparative and in light of the child abuse stories and the cover up by the Catholic Church it would be like trying to link pedophilia as a Christian trait.

[carmonk]

Raja said:

The motivation for the killings isn't through Islamic teachings but rather a cultural practice. Honour killings are a feature of certain South Asian communities in the UK and the underlying factors why they take place are identical whether it be a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.

So explain the 91% correlation then as posted earlier.

Raja said:

To give a Christian comparative and in light of the child abuse stories and the cover up by the Catholic Church it would be like trying to link pedophilia as a Christian trait.

So you think it's just chance that child abuse is overepresented in Catholic priests? Of course there's a link!

[Mikeyboy]

carmonk said:

Raja said:

The motivation for the killings isn't through Islamic teachings but rather a cultural practice. Honour killings are a feature of certain South Asian communities in the UK and the underlying factors why they take place are identical whether it be a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.

So explain the 91% correlation then as posted earlier.

I wouid suspect that it is more to do with the fact that in the countries where this behaviour is considered acceptable they just happen to be Muslim, rather than it is an acceptable part of Islam.
If they were hindu, as some would likely have been wothout Islam, then I suspect it would have happened just as much.

To use a better example than the priests one. It is like saying that because the Chinese had a tradition of girl child exposure it must be an acceptable part of Buddhism. It clearly isn't but it was an acceptable part of Chinese culture.

[carmonk]

Mikeyboy said:

carmonk said:

Raja said:

The motivation for the killings isn't through Islamic teachings but rather a cultural practice. Honour killings are a feature of certain South Asian communities in the UK and the underlying factors why they take place are identical whether it be a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.

So explain the 91% correlation then as posted earlier.

I wouid suspect that it is more to do with the fact that in the countries where this behaviour is considered acceptable they just happen to be Muslim, rather than it is an acceptable part of Islam.
If they were hindu, as some would likely have been wothout Islam, then I suspect it would have happened just as much.

It's good to understand that correlation isn't cause but the question is, why do you suspect? You can't say culture because culture is influenced by religion, often in every facet. And why are far more women deemed to have dishonoured the family than men? Surely it takes two? Is it a coincidence that men are considered by Islam to be superior to women (that being an almost direct quote from the Koran)?

Mikeyboy said:

To use a better example than the priests one. It is like saying that because the Chinese had a tradition of girl child exposure it must be an acceptable part of Buddhism. It clearly isn't but it was an acceptable part of Chinese culture.

You'd have to compare the actions of Buddhists with non-Buddhists. I don't know the answer as I don't know much about that, but if it was simply Chinese culture then you'd expect no difference between Buddhist and non-Buddhist groups.

[Raja]

carmonk said:

So you think it's just chance that child abuse is overepresented in Catholic priests? Of course there's a link!

But its not a link with the teachings of the faith.

I'd be the first to agree that Islam has its faults in the way its practiced but honour killings really isn't a feature here. Oppression of women in a wider context - yes as verses from the Koran are used to justify certain actions.

[Babu 01]

Babu 01 said:

I would have thought that reliable stats on this horrible practice are hard to come by as large numbers of such murders are believed to go unreported.

Pickledpiper said:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/

Wikiislam said:

Welcome to WikiIslam, the online resource on Islam that anyone can edit.

[carmonk]

Raja said:

carmonk said:

So you think it's just chance that child abuse is overepresented in Catholic priests? Of course there's a link!

But its not a link with the teachings of the faith.

It is a link, a very clear one. What you mean is there's not a direct link, which in this case is true.

Raja said:

I'd be the first to agree that Islam has its faults in the way its practiced but honour killings really isn't a feature here. Oppression of women in a wider context - yes as verses from the Koran are used to justify certain actions.

There is nowhere in the Koran I'm aware of where death is called for in punishment for 'dishonour' but there are plenty in the hadiths, which is just as integral to Islam than the Koran or so I'm told. And we also have verses from the Koran advocating violence

Koran24:2 said:

The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication must be flogged each of them a hundred times. Let no compassion move you in their case in this matter prescribed by God

and life-long imprisonment

Koran24:2 said:

As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death.

Add to that the somewhat twisted nature of 'honour' as seen in the Koran. Mohammed allegedly showed honour to his future wife, which he exchanged for seven slaves as a conquest of war after killing her husband, father and brother.

Here's an interesting quote from a Muslim on the matter

Al_Skudsi_bin_Hookah said:

(roving reporter and foreign correspondent for The Gaza Gajeera)
“I am very unhappy. Our way of life is under attack. And we are not fighting back. Deep down, we know that when a woman has disgraced her family, nothing will restore honor except by killing her. This is understood in Jordan, Syria, Yemen, Lebanon, Egypt, the Gaza strip and the West Bank. So why are we Arabs telling the Western press that honor killing is cultural, that it is not really part of Islam? Our way of life is based on maintaining our honor. And make no mistake about it: a woman does tarnish her family's honor by engaging in pre-marital sex, or by getting herself raped, when she seeks divorce and when she marries against her family's wishes. And keeping our women pure is a big part of our honor. So there's no point saying honor killing isn't really part of our religion. Honor and Islam are inextricably bound; they are what give our life meaning. A strong religion demands we choose to maintain our honor.”

[Mikeyboy]

carmonk said:

Mikeyboy said:

carmonk said:

Raja said:

The motivation for the killings isn't through Islamic teachings but rather a cultural practice. Honour killings are a feature of certain South Asian communities in the UK and the underlying factors why they take place are identical whether it be a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh.

So explain the 91% correlation then as posted earlier.

I wouid suspect that it is more to do with the fact that in the countries where this behaviour is considered acceptable they just happen to be Muslim, rather than it is an acceptable part of Islam.
If they were hindu, as some would likely have been wothout Islam, then I suspect it would have happened just as much.

It's good to understand that correlation isn't cause but the question is, why do you suspect? You can't say culture because culture is influenced by religion, often in every facet. And why are far more women deemed to have dishonoured the family than men? Surely it takes two? Is it a coincidence that men are considered by Islam to be superior to women (that being an almost direct quote from the Koran)?

Mikeyboy said:

To use a better example than the priests one. It is like saying that because the Chinese had a tradition of girl child exposure it must be an acceptable part of Buddhism. It clearly isn't but it was an acceptable part of Chinese culture.

You'd have to compare the actions of Buddhists with non-Buddhists. I don't know the answer as I don't know much about that, but if it was simply Chinese culture then you'd expect no difference between Buddhist and non-Buddhist groups.

On your first point, yes religion is a heavy influence on all aspects of human culture, but culture is also a heavy influence on religion, especially "young" religions like Islam.
Most societies in the world are patriarchal and have women as the lower rank in their social structure. It is true that the Islamic countries we are most familiar with seem to take this one step beyond what we consider the norm, but in fact until just 150 or so years ago the rules for Christian women were nearly as bad in the UK and in other Western societies. They could not vote, be seen in public without a chaperone/alone, could not choose who they married, were not incontrol of their own money and could not inherit the family lands unless married, and the title would revert to the husband.
An affair by the woman was far worse than the man having a mistress. If murder were not so much more frowned on in western society I suspect spousal/daughters murders would have been relatively common. Instead they often just shunned them, leading them to a life of penury and early death. So not much different really.
You could say the difference between the honour killing man from Pakistan and the Georgian gentleman is 200 years and a better judicial system.
On your second point in china before the communist takeover most of the population was Buddhist and in those communiites the practice was common, the western observers who noted this did not make a comment that the different sects saw it differently, or that the confucianists were more prone to it.

[Apache]

Has a man ever been the subject of an honour killing? I'd suggest that the way women are perceived by the religion of that particular country contributes greatly to this abominable behaviour.

[carmonk]

Mikeyboy said:

On your first point, yes religion is a heavy influence on all aspects of human culture, but culture is also a heavy influence on religion, especially "young" religions like Islam.

So they are inextricably linked. And remember that whilst some cultures might inhibit the excesses of Islam, Muslims believe the Koran to be the literal word of God so in that respect there's little room for leeway or change.

Mikeyboy said:

Most societies in the world are patriarchal and have women as the lower rank in their social structure. It is true that the Islamic countries we are most familiar with seem to take this one step beyond what we consider the norm, but in fact until just 150 or so years ago the rules for Christian women were nearly as bad in the UK and in other Western societies. They could not vote, be seen in public without a chaperone/alone, could not choose who they married, were not incontrol of their own money and could not inherit the family lands unless married, and the title would revert to the husband.
An affair by the woman was far worse than the man having a mistress. If murder were not so much more frowned on in western society I suspect spousal/daughters murders would have been relatively common. Instead they often just shunned them, leading them to a life of penury and early death. So not much different really.

You won't get me defending Christianity and certainly not the Christian interpretations of X hundred years ago. Islam, however, is particularly intolerant in its teachings and by its nature especially resistant to change. Also there is no Islamic authority or control or monitoring over its teachings.

Mikeyboy said:

You could say the difference between the honour killing man from Pakistan and the Georgian gentleman is 200 years and a better judicial system.

It's not equivalent but in broad terms yes, you're right. What we have is a primitive and unacceptable ideology intruding into the present day. It's no excuse to say it was OK 400 years ago, or that Christians behaved in a similar fashion in the Middle Ages.

Mikeyboy said:

On your second point in china before the communist takeover most of the population was Buddhist and in those communiites the practice was common, the western observers who noted this did not make a comment that the different sects saw it differently, or that the confucianists were more prone to it.

As I say I don't know about that.

[carmonk]

Apache said:

Has a man ever been the subject of an honour killing? I'd suggest that the way women are perceived by the religion of that particular country contributes greatly to this abominable behaviour.

Some have (and oddly, they were better represented 1400 years ago than now) but nowadays women are the far more likely to be victims than men. Under strict Islamic law women who have been raped are stoned to death on the grounds they have brough dishonour on the family. The rapists, on the very rare occasions they are brought to justice, might receive a reprimand or a dozen lashes.

Edited by carmonk on Thursday 4th August 17:25

[Raja]

Lifting random quotes out of any book is easily done to present one particular perspective but even with the quotes carmonk has selected i don't see there being a requirement on Muslims to conduct honour killings. Muslim scholars i sometimes work with talk about the importance of not taking and applying literal translations from the Koran and the importance of applying a series of golden rules when reading it, one of which is context. Its probably a lesson that was missed on some Muslims and non-Muslims i think.

As i indicated previously I grew up in communities where this form of oppression was whilst not the norm it wasn't unusual. The justification of the men who did this was never legitimised through any notion of religious obligation.

Finally just because a bunch of Catholic priests are pedophiles doesn't make pedophilia a Christian practice. In the same way honour killings is not a Muslim practice.

[Pickled Piper]

Raja said:

Lifting random quotes out of any book is easily done to present one particular perspective but even with the quotes carmonk has selected i don't see there being a requirement on Muslims to conduct honour killings. Muslim scholars i sometimes work with talk about the importance of not taking and applying literal translations from the Koran and the importance of applying a series of golden rules when reading it, one of which is context. Its probably a lesson that was missed on some Muslims and non-Muslims i think.

As i indicated previously I grew up in communities where this form of oppression was whilst not the norm it wasn't unusual. The justification of the men who did this was never legitimised through any notion of religious obligation.

Finally just because a bunch of Catholic priests are pedophiles doesn't make pedophilia a Christian practice. In the same way honour killings is not a Muslim practice.

No one is stating that Islam prescribes honour killing. However, of those that partake in this activity, the vast majority would describe themselves as Muslim. There is a Muslim culture as well as Islamic teachings.

The high correlation is just too high to ignore or dismiss as a co-incidence. It also relates to Muslims around the world and not just in rural South Asia.

pp

[Pickled Piper]

Babu 01 said:

As I understand it India currently has the highest rate of "honour killings" per capita and no such stats are collected there.

http://wwrn.org/articles/33780/

Regardless, I was pointing out that the practice is not one solely limited to Islamic communities and that every time one reads of such a murder one should not automatically assume it involves Muslims.

You understand incorrectly or you have misread the article you linked to. It states that the highest number of honour killings per capita occur in Pakistan.

Contrary to what you have stated, if one assumes Muslim family every time one reads a report of honour killing, one would be correct over 90% of the time.

Again I'm not suggesting that Islam prescribes honour killing but the correlation is alarming.

pp

[Raja]

Pickled Piper said:

No one is stating that Islam prescribes honour killing. However, of those that partake in this activity, the vast majority would describe themselves as Muslim. There is a Muslim culture as well as Islamic teachings.

The high correlation is just too high to ignore or dismiss as a co-incidence. It also relates to Muslims around the world and not just in rural South Asia.

pp

As long as we're in agreement then that no-one is saying that Islam prescribes honour killings.

My only experience of honour killings is in the UK hence my reference to South Asian communities here.

The correlation that does worry me about Islam in a global sense is the oppression of women. In particular women from underprivileged backgrounds. I say this because when I have the occasional conversation with some Muslim female friends of mine they are nearly always defensive and point to how some Islamic countries leaders are women. I think that notions of class and privilege is missed by them.

[carmonk]

Raja said:

Lifting random quotes out of any book is easily done to present one particular perspective but even with the quotes carmonk has selected i don't see there being a requirement on Muslims to conduct honour killings.

I never said there's a requirement (in fact, didn't I say that the Koran does not require them?) but there's little doubt that Islam provides a framework in which such deeds could be considered justified. As for the quotes, I don't know what you mean - 'random' - they're just quotes, quotes which Muslims believe are the literal word of God.

Raja said:

Muslim scholars i sometimes work with talk about the importance of not taking and applying literal translations from the Koran and the importance of applying a series of golden rules when reading it, one of which is context. Its probably a lesson that was missed on some Muslims and non-Muslims i think.

There's been a lot of discussion on this and what became quickly clear was that this 'context' is very nebulous and nowhere in the Koran is it defined or even hinted at. The words 'In times of war...' would have gone a long way to eradicating this confusion yet nowhere are there present. That some Muslims and non-Muslims read something into that cannot reasonably be criticised, especially given the impactful nature of what's being discussed. The same with the interpretation, that has been discussed at length also. My question still stands, if there are multiple conflicting interpretations (which there are) then for what reason should the literal interpretation be ignored? Almost all Muslims on here criticise the extremists yet they are arguably the ones who are being truest to Islam in the same way as the US and African fundamentalist Christians support sanctions against homosexuals (usually death) because that is taught in Leviticus of the Old Testament.

Raja said:

As i indicated previously I grew up in communities where this form of oppression was whilst not the norm it wasn't unusual. The justification of the men who did this was never legitimised through any notion of religious obligation.

Yet assuing that's accurate, they were religious and they accepted their actions as not being in conflict with their religion. What does that say about their religion?

Raja said:

Finally just because a bunch of Catholic priests are pedophiles doesn't make pedophilia a Christian practice. In the same way honour killings is not a Muslim practice.

As I said, that's true. But certain demands the Catholic faith makes on its adherents, combined with the notion that preservation of the church is more important than the needs of any and every human on earth (hence little or no historical sanction), explains the correlation between this behaviour and Catholic priests (and likely why paedophiles with no real religious interest were attracted to the church).

[carmonk]

Raja said:

Pickled Piper said:

No one is stating that Islam prescribes honour killing. However, of those that partake in this activity, the vast majority would describe themselves as Muslim. There is a Muslim culture as well as Islamic teachings.

The high correlation is just too high to ignore or dismiss as a co-incidence. It also relates to Muslims around the world and not just in rural South Asia.

pp

As long as we're in agreement then that no-one is saying that Islam prescribes honour killings.

My only experience of honour killings is in the UK hence my reference to South Asian communities here.

The correlation that does worry me about Islam in a global sense is the oppression of women. In particular women from underprivileged backgrounds. I say this because when I have the occasional conversation with some Muslim female friends of mine they are nearly always defensive and point to how some Islamic countries leaders are women. I think that notions of class and privilege is missed by them.

Well I agree with that.