Army Abuse of Iraqi 'Appalling'

[Marvin Hagler]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14825889

The soldiers involved are sick bds....
1 year prison is all the main soldier that was involved got as punishment.
1 year equates to one mans life brutally ended according to British justice. What a joke.

Not all soldiers are like this soldier, but there are too many UK and US soldiers who are abusing and torturing others in the name of democracy.

Juniors soldiers who didnt take part in the torture had no 'moral courage' to stop this or report to someone. They too are cowards not 'heroes'.

[SmoothCriminal]

When you train people to be legalised killers you can't be shocked when some people go over the edge.

[Digga]

It is horrific, especially considering that some of the detainees may have been entirely innocent and it is not generally good for encouraging local support.

However, our government has chosen - without any consultation of the opinions of voters - to spread its's armed forces thin and fight wars in numerous foreign territories simulateously, for decades. This is what happens when soliders are asked to undertake very difficult, demanding tasks in hostile territory.

I truly don't know what the answer is. The 'wars' are against guerilla factions, the sort who think nothing of recruiting and indoctrinating the young and vulnerable, nor of bombing innocent civillians. How do we detain and interview such targets effectively for the greater good?

It's a no win situation though and I question whether we should ever have got involved or whether (especially now) we can afford to continue playing world police.

[Marvin Hagler]

SmoothCriminal said:

train people

The word 'train' is important here. The soldiers are not uncivilised monkeys recruited into an army solely to kill are they. They are human beings capable of rational thought.

Would you be happy if the soldeiers deployed in the recent UK riots barbarically tortured the looters because 'they are trained killers'?

Do soldiers from the UK and US have a moral compass? I understand voilence is needed in battle situations, but 'dangerous stress positions', 'hitting prisoners so there screams sound like a choir' is hardly acceptable on already detained prisoners.

If you justify the above tactics used by these sick soldiers then you are a terrorist sympathiser and UK soldiers can also be regarded as terrorists.

edited to add that I am not 'shocked'. The stuff the british and US military has done in other situations has been far worse than what happened to Baha Musa. Hell some soldiers even torture and bully their own colleagues. But hey they are all heroes! The word 'heroes' should not be used so liberally for UK and US soldiers.

Edited by Marvin Hagler on Thursday 8th September 13:46

[rhinochopig]

SmoothCriminal said:

When you train people to be legalised killers you can't be shocked when some people go over the edge.

We (the UK) don't train them to be 'legalised killers' we train them to be soldiers. Two very very different concepts - that thankfully the majority of British servicemen get.

[southendpier]

Marvin Hagler said:

The word 'train' is important here. The soldiers are not uncivilised monkeys recruited into an army solely to kill are they. They are human beings capable of rational thought.

Would you be happy if the soldeiers deployed in the recent UK riots barbarically tortured the looters because 'they are trained killers'?

Do soldiers from the UK and US have a moral compass? I understand voilence is needed in battle situations, but 'dangerous stress positions', 'hitting prisoners so there screams sound like a choir' is hardly acceptable on already detained prisoners.

If you justify the above tactics used by these sick soldiers then you are a terrorist sympathiser and UK soldiers can also be regarded as terrorists.

I think it would be fair to say that many people join the army as angry, agressive young men who want to shoot other people. This is why the military recruits "dumb" youngsters. Why not I guess, you don't want a bunch of 60yr old hippies fighting your battles.

Ergo their moral compass may be squiffy compared to yours or mine - when they eventually come out of service their views may have changed.

[Digga]

southendpier said:

I think it would be fair to say that many people join the army as angry, agressive young men who want to shoot other people.

Spoof Ad said:

JOIN THE ARMY.

MEET INTERESTING PEOPLE...

...AND KILL THEM.

I still think the crux of this is that we should never have gone to war in this instance and that Blair's 'pact' with Bush - and the sexing-up of WMD evidence etc. - is the overidding and criminal issue.

Edited by Digga on Thursday 8th September 14:10

[Marvin Hagler]

southendpier said:

I think it would be fair to say that many people join the army as angry, agressive young men who want to shoot other people. This is why the military recruits "dumb" youngsters. Why not I guess, you don't want a bunch of 60yr old hippies fighting your battles.

Ergo their moral compass may be squiffy compared to yours or mine - when they eventually come out of service their views may have changed.

Its an interesting point. There is an obvious underclass of soldiers in the army who are acting out thier 'call of duty', 'saw' and 'hostel' type fanstasies. A purely anectodal experience was gained from my friend who is in the british army. When he was doing his training we used to meet in Colchester (where there is a large barracks) and walk round town/go for coffee etc. When we bumped into his colleagues they talked and acted like immature kids. Indeed, he would tell me that alot of the soldiers were bullies to thier colleagues and that they had mentality of children and this showed in their behaviour and actions.

There are soldiers who are educated, mature and play their role in the army in a dignified and respectful manner. But when these said soldiers are 'afraid' or 'do not speak' when there is torture/mistreatment (as in the case of Baha Musa) then thier credibility is no better than the perpetrators.

[MX7]

Marvin Hagler said:

Do soldiers from the UK and US have a moral compass?

No, none. What a strange question, of course they do.

You can't judge the whole army on the actions of a few. As a Muslim, I'd have thought that one of the biggest problems you've had in recent years is to avoid all being tarred with the same brush. Shame you can't grant others the same grace.

I't's good that he was jailed. A year probably isn't long enough.

[Shar2]

Marvin Hagler said:

The word 'train' is important here. The soldiers are not uncivilised monkeys recruited into an army solely to kill are they. They are human beings capable of rational thought.

Would you be happy if the soldeiers deployed in the recent UK riots barbarically tortured the looters because 'they are trained killers'?

Do soldiers from the UK and US have a moral compass? I understand voilence is needed in battle situations, but 'dangerous stress positions', 'hitting prisoners so there screams sound like a choir' is hardly acceptable on already detained prisoners.

If you justify the above tactics used by these sick soldiers then you are a terrorist sympathiser and UK soldiers can also be regarded as terrorists.

edited to add that I am not 'shocked'. The stuff the british and US military has done in other situations has been far worse than what happened to Baha Musa. Hell some soldiers even torture and bully their own colleagues. But hey they are all heroes! The word 'heroes' should not be used so liberally for UK and US soldiers.

Edited by Marvin Hagler on Thursday 8th September 13:46

You seem to use the term US and British soldiers in a manner that makes me think you are not from either country. All our armed forces are very well trained, but there will always be some bad apples. I imagine after seeing your mates blown up, severely wounded etc, your feelings for the "other side" may impair your moral conduct somewhat. I'm not appoligising for them, but imagine the stress etc they have been under, not for just a few days, but month after month. Plus the "other side" aren't exactly brave freedom fighters, they are ruthless killers of anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking, and not just soldiers, but innocent civilians. So get off your high horse, as unless you have ever been in the situations our soldiers have been put, for purely political reasons, then you are talking out of your bottom.

[Marvin Hagler]

MX7 said:

As a Muslim, I'd have thought that one of the biggest problems you've had in recent years is to avoid all being tarred with the same brush. Shame you can't grant others the same grace.

But this is the problem. Muslims are still tarred with the same brush. In fact on pistonheads in various forums, muslims are tarnished with the same brush!

I dont want to tarnish the army with the same brush, but something tells me that the abuse that happens is more than just a few bad apples.

In the case of the US soldiers torturing detaines in Bagram air base, Abu ghraib etc. then there is lots of evidence and soldier testimony stating that what they were doing (torture) was on direct orders by senior military personnel.

These issues of torture are deeper than just brush tarnishing.

[Marvin Hagler]

Shar2 said:

You seem to use the term US and British soldiers in a manner that makes me think you are not from either country. All our armed forces are very well trained, but there will always be some bad apples. I imagine after seeing your mates blown up, severely wounded etc, your feelings for the "other side" may impair your moral conduct somewhat. I'm not appoligising for them, but imagine the stress etc they have been under, not for just a few days, but month after month. Plus the "other side" aren't exactly brave freedom fighters, they are ruthless killers of anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking, and not just soldiers, but innocent civilians. So get off your high horse, as unless you have ever been in the situations our soldiers have been put, for purely political reasons, then you are talking out of your bottom.

No amount of stress turns a human being into an animal who tortures bound prisoners. If they are that stressed then they should not be looking after captured fighters or civillians and extreme torture and brutality is not taught in the military and you know it.

Its you who is talking out of your bottom, as Baha Musa was innocent. Your brain however has classed him in the same group as a 'ruthless killer' which he was not. oh what a silly brain you have!

[AshVX220]

Shar2 said:

You seem to use the term US and British soldiers in a manner that makes me think you are not from either country. All our armed forces are very well trained, but there will always be some bad apples. I imagine after seeing your mates blown up, severely wounded etc, your feelings for the "other side" may impair your moral conduct somewhat. I'm not appoligising for them, but imagine the stress etc they have been under, not for just a few days, but month after month. Plus the "other side" aren't exactly brave freedom fighters, they are ruthless killers of anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking, and not just soldiers, but innocent civilians. So get off your high horse, as unless you have ever been in the situations our soldiers have been put, for purely political reasons, then you are talking out of your bottom.

Well said Shar2.
There are too many people in this country and the media that judge without having the first clue of what is actually happening in these area's.

It's all too easy judging from the comfort of ones arm chair, but being in combat constantly and fighting an enemy that doesn't play by the rules and is quite happy to torture anyone who doesn't agree with them, regardless of age or gender, will mean that mistakes happen.

You think this sort of thing is a one off? You think it never happened in Vietnam, or WW2, or any other conflist taking place? What about our downed pilots who were tortured by the Iragi's during GW1?

FFS

[Victor McDade]

Marvin Hagler said:

I dont want to tarnish the army with the same brush, but something tells me that the abuse that happens is more than just a few bad apples.
.

What do you base this conclusion on? The Brits had almost 50,000 troops in Iraq and 10,000 in Afghanistan yet the reports of abuse in these conflicts from our side have been relatively low.

[AshVX220]

Marvin Hagler said:

No amount of stress turns a human being into an animal who tortures bound prisoners. If they are that stressed then they should not be looking after captured fighters or civillians and extreme torture brutality and you know it.

Its you who is talking out of your bottom, as Baha Musa was innocent. Your brain however has classed him in the same group as a 'ruthless killer' which he was not. oh what a silly brain you have!

FFS, you need to have a serious think about the situation out there and have a word with yourself.

Who's going to look after PoW in a combat zone then, if not the soldiers who are there doing the fighting? The locals? Excellent, they'll all be released within half an hour, innocent or otherwise.

I'm afraid you have no idea what it's like for those lads out there and to judge from the comfort of your arm chair, like all the other bbc loving do-gooders in this country, I find sickening.

[MX7]

Marvin Hagler said:

MX7 said:

As a Muslim, I'd have thought that one of the biggest problems you've had in recent years is to avoid all being tarred with the same brush. Shame you can't grant others the same grace.

But this is the problem. Muslims are still tarred with the same brush.

Absolute bullst.

[Mojocvh]

AshVX220 said:

Shar2 said:

You seem to use the term US and British soldiers in a manner that makes me think you are not from either country. All our armed forces are very well trained, but there will always be some bad apples. I imagine after seeing your mates blown up, severely wounded etc, your feelings for the "other side" may impair your moral conduct somewhat. I'm not appoligising for them, but imagine the stress etc they have been under, not for just a few days, but month after month. Plus the "other side" aren't exactly brave freedom fighters, they are ruthless killers of anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking, and not just soldiers, but innocent civilians. So get off your high horse, as unless you have ever been in the situations our soldiers have been put, for purely political reasons, then you are talking out of your bottom.

Well said Shar2.
There are too many people in this country and the media that judge without having the first clue of what is actually happening in these area's.

It's all too easy judging from the comfort of ones arm chair, but being in combat constantly and fighting an enemy that doesn't play by the rules and is quite happy to torture anyone who doesn't agree with them, regardless of age or gender, will mean that mistakes happen.

You think this sort of thing is a one off? You think it never happened in Vietnam, or WW2, or any other conflist taking place? What about our downed pilots who were tortured by the Iragi's during GW1?

FFS

[Dave_ST220]

Shar2 said:

You seem to use the term US and British soldiers in a manner that makes me think you are not from either country. All our armed forces are very well trained, but there will always be some bad apples. I imagine after seeing your mates blown up, severely wounded etc, your feelings for the "other side" may impair your moral conduct somewhat. I'm not appoligising for them, but imagine the stress etc they have been under, not for just a few days, but month after month. Plus the "other side" aren't exactly brave freedom fighters, they are ruthless killers of anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking, and not just soldiers, but innocent civilians. So get off your high horse, as unless you have ever been in the situations our soldiers have been put, for purely political reasons, then you are talking out of your bottom.

Very well said.

[Marvin Hagler]

Victor McDade said:

What do you base this conclusion? The Brits had almost 50,000 troops in Iraq and 10,000 in Afghanistan yet the reports of abuse in these conflicts from our side have been relatively low.

There is lots of stuff on wiki leaks regarding this. Also there has been many reports of british soldiers involved in mis-treatment since the wars began.

When you say 'relatively low'...relative to what?

[Victor McDade]

Marvin Hagler said:

There is lots of stuff on wiki leaks regarding this. Also there has been many reports of british soldiers involved in mis-treatment since the wars began.

When you say 'relatively low'...relative to what?

Relative to the total number of apples.