John Humphrys - Future State of Welfare BBC 2/HD
Discussion
Did anybody see Thursday nights show on BBC2/HD John Humphrys - Future State of Welfare?
For anyone interested http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016ltsh/The_...
I felt it was a very interesting program and John Humphrys is a broadcaster i have respect for and i'd urge anybody with an interest in this subject to watch it.
JH was investigating Welfare from the 'Beveridge Report' to now and touring the country speaking to people dependant on benefits and some of it, like the cases of the mother with 7 children and the family in Middlesbrough i found depressing. You should feel angry when someone says 'whats the point in going to work to end up with nothing more' but i found it depressing. There are clearly parts of the country which seem bleak and hopeless. JH's trip down his childhood street in Cardiff said a lot 'everybody worked, it was a mark of shame not to, one man in my road didnt work and he was a pariah.'
The show looked at reform in the United States in the 90s which is staggering viewing, incredible reform of which elements may be a step in the right direction. Its clearly not perfect but engrossing viewing none the less.
Politicians speak a lot of bluster on this but they know the political risks and consequences are massive if any reform goes horribly wrong. Im glad im not the one who has to try and sort it as its almost impossible to think of a system which doesnt reward those who dont need it without punishing some who do. I strongly believe the majority of people are decent but as the Middlesbrough Mayor proved there are areas where this sort of lifestyle is a way of life and its depressing above everything else. Ive spent most of my life in an area with lower than average unemployment and a slightly older demographic so ive never seen first hand the disgraceful lifestyle which has become the norm in some areas.
At least there was some positivity at the end with the group of young people who said bluntly they dont want to be on benefits like their parents, they want to do something with their lives. I really hope they achieve it as well.
Thoughts?
For anyone interested http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b016ltsh/The_...
I felt it was a very interesting program and John Humphrys is a broadcaster i have respect for and i'd urge anybody with an interest in this subject to watch it.
JH was investigating Welfare from the 'Beveridge Report' to now and touring the country speaking to people dependant on benefits and some of it, like the cases of the mother with 7 children and the family in Middlesbrough i found depressing. You should feel angry when someone says 'whats the point in going to work to end up with nothing more' but i found it depressing. There are clearly parts of the country which seem bleak and hopeless. JH's trip down his childhood street in Cardiff said a lot 'everybody worked, it was a mark of shame not to, one man in my road didnt work and he was a pariah.'
The show looked at reform in the United States in the 90s which is staggering viewing, incredible reform of which elements may be a step in the right direction. Its clearly not perfect but engrossing viewing none the less.
Politicians speak a lot of bluster on this but they know the political risks and consequences are massive if any reform goes horribly wrong. Im glad im not the one who has to try and sort it as its almost impossible to think of a system which doesnt reward those who dont need it without punishing some who do. I strongly believe the majority of people are decent but as the Middlesbrough Mayor proved there are areas where this sort of lifestyle is a way of life and its depressing above everything else. Ive spent most of my life in an area with lower than average unemployment and a slightly older demographic so ive never seen first hand the disgraceful lifestyle which has become the norm in some areas.
At least there was some positivity at the end with the group of young people who said bluntly they dont want to be on benefits like their parents, they want to do something with their lives. I really hope they achieve it as well.
Thoughts?
tmartin84 said:
Ive spent most of my life in an area with lower than average unemployment and a slightly older demographic so ive never seen first hand the disgraceful lifestyle which has become the norm in some areas.
I think this is a massive problem - a blind spot if you will - for a lot of well-meaning (mostly left-leaning) voterse and politicians.Unless you have been exposed to the culture, it sounds like right-wing propaganda - an outright attack on all that is 'right' about the welfare system. As you say, it does exist and the cost to all of us, both on and off the dole, is too high to be sustained.
I've seen two post-mining town take very different initial trajectories, despite being separated by only 5 miles. On the one hand, a very can-do, adapt-and-survive town, and on the other, an abject 'our jobs' are gone, multi-generational state-dependance town.
I am very pleased to say that in the case of the latter, through efforts to regenrate and encourage business, there is now a more positive outlook. The solution is simple with regards to benefits - they must] be overhauled to ensure they are a safety net and not a lifestyle - as it is to jobs - give businesses of all sizes the space (physically and in terms of red tape and taxation) to grow and do nothing else.
I watched the first half of the program (recorded rest) and found that it was quite lightweight. J.H. questions are mundanely loaded seeking the very obvious answers, which he received. Nothing new or interesting came through, simply affirming what I would imagine 100% of the viewing audience must already know. I would like to have seen much more political input from Ministers to at least give us all more optimism.
Means tested benefits will always produce perverse outcomes.
We need to replace the lot with a citizens income. No more dole, housing benefit, pension or disability benefit.
What a citizen's income won't cover can be handled by charity. Government is terrible at identifying the truely needy, charities do much better.
Such a system would reduce poverty and inequality and is supported by elements of both the left and right.
We need to replace the lot with a citizens income. No more dole, housing benefit, pension or disability benefit.
What a citizen's income won't cover can be handled by charity. Government is terrible at identifying the truely needy, charities do much better.
Such a system would reduce poverty and inequality and is supported by elements of both the left and right.
My mates wife works in a job centre in Runcorn. She often tells me about how Polish people come to her centre, and all they want is a National Insurance number. They then go and get jobs, and she says she never sees them again. Conversely, she sees the same local families coming in to claim benefits, and she now sees the third generation of these same families who have never worked. As the programme outlined, many of these claimants are making a lifestyle choice. If you are happy to accept what the state will provide for you, then why bother. The only answer is to stop paying them, then they would have to work. There are jobs available (polish people are doing them), so force them to do them, and while they are getting benefits, make them report to the local council offices, and issue them with brushes etc and get them cleaning the streets. If they don't turn up, they don't get paid. You need to be cruel to be kind.
don4l said:
rich1231 said:
7 children, not worked for 20 years.
The system is completely broken if whilst on benefits we continue to reward increasingly wreckless behaviour with no responsibility being shouldered by claimants.
Child benefit should be limited to the first two children. The system is completely broken if whilst on benefits we continue to reward increasingly wreckless behaviour with no responsibility being shouldered by claimants.
Don
--
don4l said:
rich1231 said:
7 children, not worked for 20 years.
The system is completely broken if whilst on benefits we continue to reward increasingly wreckless behaviour with no responsibility being shouldered by claimants.
Child benefit should be limited to the first two children. The system is completely broken if whilst on benefits we continue to reward increasingly wreckless behaviour with no responsibility being shouldered by claimants.
Don
--
Gven how far society has changed and the original purpose of ChB in 1949, and that having children is now largely a mater of choice, I can't see a good reason for not phasing it out.
don4l said:
Child benefit should be limited to the first two children.
Don
--
Quite - set a cutoff date of 12 months' time to take into account anyone currently preggers or thereabouts, and thereafter the State will no longer support any child born after this date, where the family already has two children receiving Child Benefit.Don
--
You could implement this tomorrow and I don't think 99% of the UK would disagree.
TankRizzo said:
don4l said:
Child benefit should be limited to the first two children.
Don
--
Quite - set a cutoff date of 12 months' time to take into account anyone currently preggers or thereabouts, and thereafter the State will no longer support any child born after this date, where the family already has two children receiving Child Benefit.Don
--
You could implement this tomorrow and I don't think 99% of the UK would disagree.
TankRizzo said:
Quite - set a cutoff date of 12 months' time to take into account anyone currently preggers or thereabouts, and thereafter the State will no longer support any child born after this date, where the family already has two children receiving Child Benefit.
You could implement this tomorrow and I don't think 99% of the UK would disagree.
yes but the 1% is very very loud and annoying You could implement this tomorrow and I don't think 99% of the UK would disagree.
Watched found some interesting ideas but spent most of my time swearing at the do-gooders. Especailly the one in Islington who said it was only fair to pay over £2000 per month for housing as it would be unfair to ask these families to move to a cheaper area.
The other silly bint who was complaining she got £20 child benefit for the first child but only £13 for the second, as she said it cost as much to feed the second as the first. Yes you silly sod it does but buy a large can of beans instead of 2 small ones.
The idea of proving you are looking for work before benefits kick in is inspired.
The other silly bint who was complaining she got £20 child benefit for the first child but only £13 for the second, as she said it cost as much to feed the second as the first. Yes you silly sod it does but buy a large can of beans instead of 2 small ones.
The idea of proving you are looking for work before benefits kick in is inspired.
supersingle said:
Means tested benefits will always produce perverse outcomes.
We need to replace the lot with a citizens income. No more dole, housing benefit, pension or disability benefit.
What a citizen's income won't cover can be handled by charity. Government is terrible at identifying the truely needy, charities do much better.
Such a system would reduce poverty and inequality and is supported by elements of both the left and right.
The reduction in number of differing benefits is something the Government advocated, unfortunately the Treasury Dept has already said that it would be impossible to carry out that reduction size owing to huge complexities within the system. We need to replace the lot with a citizens income. No more dole, housing benefit, pension or disability benefit.
What a citizen's income won't cover can be handled by charity. Government is terrible at identifying the truely needy, charities do much better.
Such a system would reduce poverty and inequality and is supported by elements of both the left and right.
crankedup said:
The reduction in number of differing benefits is something the Government advocated, unfortunately the Treasury Dept has already said that it would be impossible to carry out that reduction size owing to huge complexities within the system.
Of course that's what the Treasury would say. Would you expect them to just say "we can easily downsize over the next 12 months and make 50% of our staff redundant".No large public sector department would ever say it could be downsized or simplified.
supersingle said:
Means tested benefits will always produce perverse outcomes.
We need to replace the lot with a citizens income. No more dole, housing benefit, pension or disability benefit.
What a citizen's income won't cover can be handled by charity. Government is terrible at identifying the truely needy, charities do much better.
Such a system would reduce poverty and inequality and is supported by elements of both the left and right.
Sadly no politican would have the balls to bring it in due to the daily wail screaming about giving money to rich people.We need to replace the lot with a citizens income. No more dole, housing benefit, pension or disability benefit.
What a citizen's income won't cover can be handled by charity. Government is terrible at identifying the truely needy, charities do much better.
Such a system would reduce poverty and inequality and is supported by elements of both the left and right.
Its a bone crushingly fair system. No need to force people towards work as it cost not a penny more for some one to sit on their arse all day. No poverty trap as any job that pays more then transport costs sees you better off.
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