Scottish Referendum / Independence
Discussion
Parsnip said:
Hearing Scotland compared to Norway just makes me laugh. There are an awful lot of similarities, but the biggest IMO difference is the way we have dealt with our natural resources. Norway has a state oil company and puts huge amounts of o&g revenue away for the people. The UK and Scotland do not. Add this to the fact that Norway has made 2 huge discoveries this year (one by lundin and the other I think by statoil, the state company)
Thatcher needed money to pay for the Miners' Strike and the umpteen million unemployed. There was a great deal of pressure from parliament to either salt some away on a regular basis or at least reinvest it in infrastructure but this came to nothing. Indeed, she later sold off state assets at a 'bargain' price. As soon as it started to flow she cashed in. The poll tax wasn't her biggest mistake.And someone mentioned the Scots benefitting from the profits of Empire. They did indeed. As did England and Wales. To be fair, very little got through to the bod on the streets, hence if you move a couple of blocks from Princes Street you go back to the early 20thC.
The point is that the Scots, like the rest of the UK, benefitted from working together, in a parnership.
JMGS4 said:
Being a lifelong expatriate Scot, I'm one of the majority who do not want a separation. All the Scots who I know do not want it...
Yes, but you are only talking to sensible people, of which there are surprisingly still a few in Scotland.This problem would not exist if the Tories back in John Major's day, led by that weird prick Michael Forsyth had not let the genie out of the bottle by parading the Stone of Scone back over the bridge at Berwick, and the subsequent Labour government set up the Scottish Parliament. Were it not for these dopes the SNP would still be the lunatic fringe party it was back in Winnie Ewing's day.
What these major parties don't seem to get is that they have created, largely since 1945, a subsidy junkie economy with a massive sense of entitlement and an enormous chip on their shoulder. Independence may make little sense but believe me that doesn't mean that a hell of a lot of people in Scotland won't vote for it, and the more that Westminster politicians try to make their case (particularly Conservatives) the more Scots will vote for independence. The 'Blame the English' mentality is about as bad as 'Blame the Jews' in Nazi Germany - an automatic, easy scapegoat.
Salmond may be an adept politician, but his main trick is being able to boost his own popularity by stirring up conflict with Westminster. The trouble with that policy is that it is a trick he can only play within a united Britain. He is also able to portray himself as all things to all people in Scotland. There are hard left wing nutters in the SNP - always were - there are business people, there are the Sean Connerys, and most importantly of all, all the beneficiaries of the socialist subsidy culture (some of whom are extremely affluent) who believe that they will do as well or better under the SNP as they did under Labour.
Alex Salmond says he is going to 're-industrialise Scotland'. First of all he hasn't a clue what he is talking about when it comes to enterprise and industry. Second, he is not going to reindustrialise anything until he gets a bit of discipline back into the workforce and the is a fat chance of that happening any time soon. I see no indication that Salmond has actually got any idea how he would run an independent Scotland. It might work out well in the long run, but in the short term the scale of the welfare state and public sector are such that it would initially, and perhaps for a very long time, be a complete disaster area.
As the creation of the United Kingdom was a result of direction and leadership in the time of an expanding foreign empire, the dissolution of it has equally resulted from a lack of confidence, leadership and direction. For the whole of Britain, it is not enough to worship the Royal Family, screen repeats of Downton Abbey and hold Remembrance Day once a year, as it seems to be in England. Sort that issue, and make Scotland stand on its own feet commercially, and ironically , the interest in Independence, which is an irrational aberration, would disappear. I have to say though, that the smart money in Scotland just now is backing the SNP, and hoping to grab valuable concessions and deals as and when independence comes, similar to what happened in Russia post 1989. It has nothing to do with democracy and a lot to do with corruption.
JMGS4 said:
Being a lifelong expatriate Scot, I'm one of the majority who do not want a separation. All the Scots who I know do not want it...
It's only the died in the wool Labour and other socialist dreamers and trade unionists who want it.
However they've not thought it out as we (the Scots) have no real National Income (own industry, own taxes) to draw on, so it'll be an economic failure with the resultant unrest. Salmond is just trawling for an illusory separatist vote...
The hard truth of the matter is that England south of a line Wash-Severn pays for all the rest of us.......
Mind you if there were to be a Separation, England would be almost without any Labour seats in the english Parliament!!! which IMO can only be a good thing, judging by the mess after 13 years of socialist muck-ups!
Is that right? Living in London I'm obviously detached from Scottish national politics. I would have imagined for the British Labour movement an independent Scotland would likely mean a left leaning Westminster governemtn very very difficult.It's only the died in the wool Labour and other socialist dreamers and trade unionists who want it.
However they've not thought it out as we (the Scots) have no real National Income (own industry, own taxes) to draw on, so it'll be an economic failure with the resultant unrest. Salmond is just trawling for an illusory separatist vote...
The hard truth of the matter is that England south of a line Wash-Severn pays for all the rest of us.......
Mind you if there were to be a Separation, England would be almost without any Labour seats in the english Parliament!!! which IMO can only be a good thing, judging by the mess after 13 years of socialist muck-ups!
This is a very accurate account of the situation...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100128764...
And in the Torygraph too!
The so called Scots anti-independence on here are really not representative - PH has a VERY skewed demography! But it's the opinion in 1000 days that counts and the tide is only heading in one direction
You'll find from my posts that nothing I say is anti-English and there is no chip on my shoulder. I look to the future of a free and prosperous Scotland and have no contempt for England and the English (Westminster, a different story...). All the mildly racist stuff on here is anti-Scots from the English (numerous examples already on this thread). It is the ignorant views that have been exemplified by some folk here that only fuel the independence cause (Edinburgh built on OUR empire, i.e., the 'English' empire).
Guam said:
Its about time they got this done so the rest of the UK can move on without this constant whining about how the Scots would be better off yada yada yada.
Time to put up or shut up.
Yes as its only the scots who bleat on constantly about how hard done we areTime to put up or shut up.
Or is it the English that do the lions share of the moaning
Guam said:
As I said earlier give the whole UK a say and they will get their wish. I for one will vote adios if we get a vote in England.
Cheers
Yeah its the english who constantly moan about how the 60 MPs in Scotland gave Tony Blair is 100 plus seat majority and everything else they constantly moan about.Cheers
If you dumped scotland and got out of Europe who exactly would you blame for everything?
What interests me is the fact that everyone just seems to assume that all the North Sea Oil will belong to Scotland. I admit I don't know much about this but speaking a while back to a friend who does, he was saying that if the oil fields were divided up according to international guidelines most of them would fall within Northern England's remit.
I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS CORRECT - but I would be interested in seeing if there is proof either way as to whom the oil fields do belong to, I guess that the industry for oil grew up in Scotland bcause that was the best place for the UK at that time, if Scotland leave perhaps England will develop their own industrial place to deal with their oil.
I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS CORRECT - but I would be interested in seeing if there is proof either way as to whom the oil fields do belong to, I guess that the industry for oil grew up in Scotland bcause that was the best place for the UK at that time, if Scotland leave perhaps England will develop their own industrial place to deal with their oil.
ViperPict said:
It's OK, I'm here, the thread is saved! 
In seriousness though, I think many English would love AS as a leader. Someone who actually fights hard for the interests of his counry-folk and has a clear passion (whether you agree with that passion or not). And, unlike Cameron, he has a mandate AND a majority!
So many benefits to Scotland being independent, if you're living in Scotland. Most 'discussed' at length on here but, as one good example, smaller, more centralised government, not the over-weight behemoth that is Westminster.
Salmond really did play a political master-stroke today in totally stealing the thunder on the Unionists. If you doubt this, let's see what the headlines in tomorrow's papers are! Cameron so wanted to be making the headlines on this but no such luck toff-boy!
This post. This makes it very hard for me to understand the issue because everytime I try and discuss this with Scottish people they start up with the Tory toff/English bad stuff. It's not a conversation strand that has featured heavily in my life since The Young Ones era in the 80s and I always find it very surprising when I'm in Scotland to hear people still talking like it.In seriousness though, I think many English would love AS as a leader. Someone who actually fights hard for the interests of his counry-folk and has a clear passion (whether you agree with that passion or not). And, unlike Cameron, he has a mandate AND a majority!
So many benefits to Scotland being independent, if you're living in Scotland. Most 'discussed' at length on here but, as one good example, smaller, more centralised government, not the over-weight behemoth that is Westminster.
Salmond really did play a political master-stroke today in totally stealing the thunder on the Unionists. If you doubt this, let's see what the headlines in tomorrow's papers are! Cameron so wanted to be making the headlines on this but no such luck toff-boy!
In an attempt to balance any perception of overwhelming interest and strong opinion of independence or of the Union I'll try to give a snapshot of opinion the matter in London.
Honestly my perception of the views of the vast majority of Londoners I meet socially and through work could be descibed as 10% either side of indifference. I say "my perception" because Scottish Independence/Unionism is such a non-topic that it rarely arises. Strong views, certainly, are few and far between. Maybe it's a London thing; nationality, religion, age, gender aren't that significant to me or the majority of my peers. I meet peoples of so many nations during my working day, and hear so many languages that it's hard to develop a heightened sense of nationalism myself, let alone have a significant view on the nationality of others.
Small mindedness I'm sure can be found in equal measure in England as in Scotland. A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of holidaying in Lincolnshire. There were plenty of unreconstructed and underdeveloped views on show there. My parents lived in Edinburgh for five years in the 70s and return to Edinburgh every year to visit friends. They love it. For the first time they took a holiday outside of Edinburgh last year and came home very upset by the anti-English sentiments they came across. A couple of times they were actually refused service. They won't venture outside of the capital again.
Divorces are rarely pleasant but if it's what's really desired then a difficult period must be endured before both parties wish each other all the best.
Honestly my perception of the views of the vast majority of Londoners I meet socially and through work could be descibed as 10% either side of indifference. I say "my perception" because Scottish Independence/Unionism is such a non-topic that it rarely arises. Strong views, certainly, are few and far between. Maybe it's a London thing; nationality, religion, age, gender aren't that significant to me or the majority of my peers. I meet peoples of so many nations during my working day, and hear so many languages that it's hard to develop a heightened sense of nationalism myself, let alone have a significant view on the nationality of others.
Small mindedness I'm sure can be found in equal measure in England as in Scotland. A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of holidaying in Lincolnshire. There were plenty of unreconstructed and underdeveloped views on show there. My parents lived in Edinburgh for five years in the 70s and return to Edinburgh every year to visit friends. They love it. For the first time they took a holiday outside of Edinburgh last year and came home very upset by the anti-English sentiments they came across. A couple of times they were actually refused service. They won't venture outside of the capital again.
Divorces are rarely pleasant but if it's what's really desired then a difficult period must be endured before both parties wish each other all the best.
Guam said:
thinfourth2 said:
Can i ask why you want rid of Sotland?
What do my motives matter, you guys want out, I personally agreeHold the vote and lets get it done?
No need for further discussion on the matter really is there?
Unless of course you guyus really dont want out?
And you have been whining for the sake of it?
You guys cant stand each other let alone the English.
Sectarian Divisions, auld clan divisions, highlanders V lowlanders etc etc.
Frankly its time you got your wish fulfilled.
Thats nice to know
thinfourth2 said:
JMGS4 said:
Mind you if there were to be a Separation, England would be almost without any Labour seats in the english Parliament!!! which IMO can only be a good thing, judging by the mess after 13 years of socialist muck-ups!
A small snippet of realityLondon has more labour MPs then Scotland
But why let that get in the way of a good whinge
Caulkhead said:
You mean a partial snippet of reality. London may have more Labour MP's than Scotland (not surprising as it also has far more electorate), but whereas London generates both Tory and Labour MP's, Scotland only generates Labour ones, so there is no balancing effect.
So london producing more labour MPs then scotland means the westminister won't be completely free of labour MPsViperPict said:
thinfourth2 said:
ViperPict said:
Independence will guaranteed reinvigourate Scotland's ship building industry without question...
Frankly thats rubbishGuam said:
thinfourth2 said:
So you don't have a reason
Thats nice to know
I didnt say thatThats nice to know
I said my motives for voting yes, are irrellevant to the discussion
Do you always try to INVENT rationale <so typical of political discussions these days>
You should be pleased that some <a large number> of the English support Scottish independence.
What we see instead is questioning the motives of someone who AGREES with your wish for independence lol
How VERY Scots!
gtdc said:
ViperPict said:
It's OK, I'm here, the thread is saved!
In seriousness though, I think many English would love AS as a leader. Someone who actually fights hard for the interests of his counry-folk and has a clear passion (whether you agree with that passion or not). And, unlike Cameron, he has a mandate AND a majority!
So many benefits to Scotland being independent, if you're living in Scotland. Most 'discussed' at length on here but, as one good example, smaller, more centralised government, not the over-weight behemoth that is Westminster.
Salmond really did play a political master-stroke today in totally stealing the thunder on the Unionists. If you doubt this, let's see what the headlines in tomorrow's papers are! Cameron so wanted to be making the headlines on this but no such luck toff-boy!
This post. This makes it very hard for me to understand the issue because everytime I try and discuss this with Scottish people they start up with the Tory toff/English bad stuff. It's not a conversation strand that has featured heavily in my life since The Young Ones era in the 80s and I always find it very surprising when I'm in Scotland to hear people still talking like it.In seriousness though, I think many English would love AS as a leader. Someone who actually fights hard for the interests of his counry-folk and has a clear passion (whether you agree with that passion or not). And, unlike Cameron, he has a mandate AND a majority!
So many benefits to Scotland being independent, if you're living in Scotland. Most 'discussed' at length on here but, as one good example, smaller, more centralised government, not the over-weight behemoth that is Westminster.
Salmond really did play a political master-stroke today in totally stealing the thunder on the Unionists. If you doubt this, let's see what the headlines in tomorrow's papers are! Cameron so wanted to be making the headlines on this but no such luck toff-boy!
thinfourth2 said:
ViperPict said:
thinfourth2 said:
ViperPict said:
Independence will guaranteed reinvigourate Scotland's ship building industry without question...
Frankly thats rubbishGuam said:
thinfourth2 said:
So london producing more labour MPs then scotland means the westminister won't be completely free of labour MPs
Where did anyone suggest it would?JMGS4 said:
Mind you if there were to be a Separation, England would be almost without any Labour seats in the english Parliament!!! which IMO can only be a good thing, judging by the mess after 13 years of socialist muck-ups!
Guam said:
It will mean fewer Labour Mps and less intereference in matters affecting ONLY England.
Dont see a lot wrong with that view frankly. do you?
There are very few matters which effect England only and where there are matters which effect England only i'd happily see Scottish MPs barred from voting on them.Dont see a lot wrong with that view frankly. do you?
Guam said:
ViperPict said:
As someone from the north of England (probably one of the places MOST affacted by London-centric economics, certainly worse than Scotland), you should be wanting to be annexed by Scotland.
In your Dreams, As I said previously on another thread on this Topic, good luck trying that one on down the Bigg market on a saturday night.Tynesides Problems are characteristic of the Safe Seat phenomenan. Not "London centric poltics BS"
Even Labour voters on Tyneside always understood that.
However the Class divide that is so ingrained up there <it runs both ways> prevents the adoption of a "floating voter" strategy which is the real issue in those regions impacted by Safe Seat malaise <IMHO>
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