Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 2]
Discussion
Andy Zarse said:
Steffan said:
turbobloke said:
Mermaid said:
S & P raises Greece local long term debt rating to CCC from selective default.
Is that like going up from bunk to junk?It is quite obvious to any observer of the EU machinations and HBAT's utterly prostrate and failing economies, that none of the HBAT's are ever going to be able to recover and return to prosperity, unless they default and rebuild their entire economic systems. Which will take years.
The EU is holding the HBAT's within the Euro, by offering lovely subsidy as required, knowing full well that the EU taxpayer will take the hit and have no recourse to anyone. Straws to drowning men. Simply disgraceful conduct.
I find this glib, slippery approach, to what is an horrendous future for the electorate and taxpayers of the HBAT's simply disgraceful. All the EU leaders know that this can only end in one way. It reminds me of a cat playing with a mouse.
This level of deliberate, patent apparent dishonesty, should not be acceptable in a civilised society. This is not the way for any economic difficulty to be managed and is unbecoming conduct in any public office.
I think it simply underlines the absolute lack of regard the EU politicians have for the people of the EU.
You have consistently underestimated the pigheaded determination of EZ politicians to force the Euro to work. All of them absolutely refuse to be proved wrong, and will duck, dive, bob, weave and dodge to the end of their breath. Instead of fulminating daily, you need to factor this willfullness into your prognostications, sit back and enjoy the slo-mo car crash like others of us do. Of course, Turbobloke has his global warming too
and it's like trying to watch two TV programs at once. If only one could Sky + it and wind through the adverts...However I disagree that the EU politicians are determined except in self service and felicitous dishonesty for personal gain. At which they excel.
Not giving a monkeys toss about the consequences to the rest of the world of outright dishonesty and misfeance in public office, is not determination. It is crookery, plain and simple and that is what the Politicians, in the EU, have become. Greedy, slavering, self serving, Toads certainly. Morally bankrupt unquestionably.
Determined?
Too courteous a word to describe that load of shysters.
Well worth an hour of your time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=ObMfmE3JM...
Hugh Hendry - he might be talking his own book but I like the patter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=ObMfmE3JM...
Hugh Hendry - he might be talking his own book but I like the patter.
Steffan said:
You may be right in your assessment. I may be fulminating too much. Excesses have always been my strength, throughout my life hence the five wives every one of which I thoroughly enjoyed. I have slowed down a bit as Old Father Time has trimmed the wick. In the nicest possible way.
However I disagree that the EU politicians are determined except in self service and felicitous dishonesty for personal gain. At which they excel.
Not giving a monkeys toss about the consequences to the rest of the world of outright dishonesty and misfeance in public office, is not determination. It is crookery, plain and simple and that is what the Politicians, in the EU, have become. Greedy, slavering, self serving, Toads certainly. Morally bankrupt unquestionably.
Determined?
Too courteous a word to describe that load of shysters.
You're correct so far as you go, but you seem to come from the DJRC school of thought. You think it's all about money. I don't, I think it's more about politics, abuse of power, the use of finance to try to defy economics (see Canute) and empire building.However I disagree that the EU politicians are determined except in self service and felicitous dishonesty for personal gain. At which they excel.
Not giving a monkeys toss about the consequences to the rest of the world of outright dishonesty and misfeance in public office, is not determination. It is crookery, plain and simple and that is what the Politicians, in the EU, have become. Greedy, slavering, self serving, Toads certainly. Morally bankrupt unquestionably.
Determined?
Too courteous a word to describe that load of shysters.
Andy Zarse said:
You're correct so far as you go, but you seem to come from the DJRC school of thought. You think it's all about money. I don't, I think it's more about politics, abuse of power, the use of finance to try to defy economics (see Canute) and empire building.
AZ is right but it is also about the money .....and keeping going as long as possible the gravy train is not gifted with perpetual motion as some belive, I detect the front wheel is just on by a thread.
Andy Zarse said:
Steffan said:
You may be right in your assessment. I may be fulminating too much. Excesses have always been my strength, throughout my life hence the five wives every one of which I thoroughly enjoyed. I have slowed down a bit as Old Father Time has trimmed the wick. In the nicest possible way.
However I disagree that the EU politicians are determined except in self service and felicitous dishonesty for personal gain. At which they excel.
Not giving a monkeys toss about the consequences to the rest of the world of outright dishonesty and misfeance in public office, is not determination. It is crookery, plain and simple and that is what the Politicians, in the EU, have become. Greedy, slavering, self serving, Toads certainly. Morally bankrupt unquestionably.
Determined?
Too courteous a word to describe that load of shysters.
You're correct so far as you go, but you seem to come from the DJRC school of thought. You think it's all about money. I don't, I think it's more about politics, abuse of power, the use of finance to try to defy economics (see Canute) and empire building.However I disagree that the EU politicians are determined except in self service and felicitous dishonesty for personal gain. At which they excel.
Not giving a monkeys toss about the consequences to the rest of the world of outright dishonesty and misfeance in public office, is not determination. It is crookery, plain and simple and that is what the Politicians, in the EU, have become. Greedy, slavering, self serving, Toads certainly. Morally bankrupt unquestionably.
Determined?
Too courteous a word to describe that load of shysters.
I just cannot believe this will actually go on for the length of time that others are predicting in the various comments on the collapse of the EU in the press and on PH.
As Gary11 suggested with his JOBAT comments the collapse of the HBAT's seems to me to be likely to happen pretty soon now. The entire world of financial journalism seems to accept that the HBAT's cannot possibly recover, and are bound to default, and I personally expect the bolstering effects of the funny money subsidy by the ESF and ECB to be reduced, in effect, as time goes on. In consequence more and more money will be needed to effect less and less calm to the markets.
You may well be reading the situation better than I am. There are clearly several entirely reasonable stances to adopt to the likely outcome. But my money is on the EU hitting a wall, in their efforts to sustain the HBAT's within the Euro and that one of these insolvent states will drop out shortly. Equally if Sarkozy drops out of power. that in itslf may precipitate the collapse.
I just cannot see this as a sustainable medium term policy, because it is so transparently economic nonsense.
Steffan said:
I agree with your reasoned assessment of the political abuse of power and the use of finance to try to defy economics as being the primary interests of Merkozy and the EU slavering toads.
I just cannot believe this will actually go on for the length of time that others are predicting in the various comments on the collapse of the EU in the press and on PH.
As Gary11 suggested with his JOBAT comments the collapse of the HBAT's seems to me to be likely to happen pretty soon now. The entire world of financial journalism seems to accept that the HBAT's cannot possibly recover, and are bound to default, and I personally expect the bolstering effects of the funny money subsidy by the ESF and ECB to be reduced, in effect, as time goes on. In consequence more and more money will be needed to effect less and less calm to the markets.
You may well be reading the situation better than I am. There are clearly several entirely reasonable stances to adopt to the likely outcome. But my money is on the EU hitting a wall, in their efforts to sustain the HBAT's within the Euro and that one of these insolvent states will drop out shortly. Equally if Sarkozy drops out of power. that in itslf may precipitate the collapse.
I just cannot see this as a sustainable medium term policy, because it is so transparently economic nonsense.
Who controls fiat?I just cannot believe this will actually go on for the length of time that others are predicting in the various comments on the collapse of the EU in the press and on PH.
As Gary11 suggested with his JOBAT comments the collapse of the HBAT's seems to me to be likely to happen pretty soon now. The entire world of financial journalism seems to accept that the HBAT's cannot possibly recover, and are bound to default, and I personally expect the bolstering effects of the funny money subsidy by the ESF and ECB to be reduced, in effect, as time goes on. In consequence more and more money will be needed to effect less and less calm to the markets.
You may well be reading the situation better than I am. There are clearly several entirely reasonable stances to adopt to the likely outcome. But my money is on the EU hitting a wall, in their efforts to sustain the HBAT's within the Euro and that one of these insolvent states will drop out shortly. Equally if Sarkozy drops out of power. that in itslf may precipitate the collapse.
I just cannot see this as a sustainable medium term policy, because it is so transparently economic nonsense.
The question of who controls Fiat, and thereby who controls Fiat currency (which is an very interesting economic concept in itself), is a very interesting question. We are entering a world of economic high finance here which few people profess to have mastery of and I am not one of those.
However from my limited knowledge, FIAT currency can only be used if there is a widespread confidence in the market in that currency and that confidence must extend to the currency being held, in high regard, both, as a measure of value and a medium of exchange.
On the basis that whosegeneration is in fact suggesting that FIAT currency will be able to support the unsupportable HBAT's for some time, then, I think that the extent of the cracks clearly showing in the actual strength of the HBAT's own economies demonstrates that in itself this support cannot sustain their survival for long.
If the support was universally regarded by the market, then the HBAT's would not already be being pilloried, as they actually are, for remaining within a currency as member states, whilst clearly unable to sustain economic activity at that level. The fact that they are being so pilloried demonstrates the weakness of the support IMO.
In a way I believe I am expressing the view that the markets will control the Fiat currency from being used in this way. The essential confidence in Fiat currency required to allow continued support, by that currency alone, is visibly slipping away.
But as I said at the start I am not an expert on Fiat currencies or, indeed, in predicting the movements of the economies, of the HBATS, as others will testify.
I still believe the HBAT's are slipping down the pole. I remain convinced this will reach a conclusion shortly.
However from my limited knowledge, FIAT currency can only be used if there is a widespread confidence in the market in that currency and that confidence must extend to the currency being held, in high regard, both, as a measure of value and a medium of exchange.
On the basis that whosegeneration is in fact suggesting that FIAT currency will be able to support the unsupportable HBAT's for some time, then, I think that the extent of the cracks clearly showing in the actual strength of the HBAT's own economies demonstrates that in itself this support cannot sustain their survival for long.
If the support was universally regarded by the market, then the HBAT's would not already be being pilloried, as they actually are, for remaining within a currency as member states, whilst clearly unable to sustain economic activity at that level. The fact that they are being so pilloried demonstrates the weakness of the support IMO.
In a way I believe I am expressing the view that the markets will control the Fiat currency from being used in this way. The essential confidence in Fiat currency required to allow continued support, by that currency alone, is visibly slipping away.
But as I said at the start I am not an expert on Fiat currencies or, indeed, in predicting the movements of the economies, of the HBATS, as others will testify.
I still believe the HBAT's are slipping down the pole. I remain convinced this will reach a conclusion shortly.
WhoseGeneration said:
1point7bar said:
WhoseGeneration said:
Who controls fiat?
Those who can compel.Edited by 1point7bar on Thursday 3rd May 21:28
Andy Zarse said:
Steffan said:
You may be right in your assessment. I may be fulminating too much. Excesses have always been my strength, throughout my life hence the five wives every one of which I thoroughly enjoyed. I have slowed down a bit as Old Father Time has trimmed the wick. In the nicest possible way.
However I disagree that the EU politicians are determined except in self service and felicitous dishonesty for personal gain. At which they excel.
Not giving a monkeys toss about the consequences to the rest of the world of outright dishonesty and misfeance in public office, is not determination. It is crookery, plain and simple and that is what the Politicians, in the EU, have become. Greedy, slavering, self serving, Toads certainly. Morally bankrupt unquestionably.
Determined?
Too courteous a word to describe that load of shysters.
You're correct so far as you go, but you seem to come from the DJRC school of thought. You think it's all about money. I don't, I think it's more about politics, abuse of power, the use of finance to try to defy economics (see Canute) and empire building.However I disagree that the EU politicians are determined except in self service and felicitous dishonesty for personal gain. At which they excel.
Not giving a monkeys toss about the consequences to the rest of the world of outright dishonesty and misfeance in public office, is not determination. It is crookery, plain and simple and that is what the Politicians, in the EU, have become. Greedy, slavering, self serving, Toads certainly. Morally bankrupt unquestionably.
Determined?
Too courteous a word to describe that load of shysters.
More to the point however, is what is "it" that you are talking about?
Steffan said:
Possibly. But we have idiots like b
kbrain and Millipede in charge of Labour who clearly think the the TB/GB disaster was entirely acceptable. And who would happily continue to pour more and more money taken firm the poor taxpayers and overborrowed by the Treasury in the name of the Taxpayers into totally unsupportable benefits scheme which the country cannot afford.
The Benefits Society is a wet dream to Labour. Lots of votes easily bought with someone elses money. So we are certainly not out of the woods. There is no downside for them as they move onto the international Statesman stage in their self careers. With Yvette Cooper to make the tea.
Hoe about announcing now that benefits will be cut a certain percentage every year from now on? kbrain and Millipede in charge of Labour who clearly think the the TB/GB disaster was entirely acceptable. And who would happily continue to pour more and more money taken firm the poor taxpayers and overborrowed by the Treasury in the name of the Taxpayers into totally unsupportable benefits scheme which the country cannot afford.The Benefits Society is a wet dream to Labour. Lots of votes easily bought with someone elses money. So we are certainly not out of the woods. There is no downside for them as they move onto the international Statesman stage in their self careers. With Yvette Cooper to make the tea.
WhoseGeneration said:
Steffan didn't answer, you are edging towards an answer without describing the interlinking between the pertinent actors.
The means of exchange for the top ten most traded global commodities is denominated by compulsion. This hegemony accomodates, by proxy, the counterpoint to Steffan's reasoning. I am at great pains to deduce an axiomatic opinion.1point7bar said:
WhoseGeneration said:
Steffan didn't answer, you are edging towards an answer without describing the interlinking between the pertinent actors.
The means of exchange for the top ten most traded global commodities is denominated by compulsion. This hegemony accomodates, by proxy, the counterpoint to Steffan's reasoning. I am at great pains to deduce an axiomatic opinion.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff