Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 2]
Discussion
Driller said:
Guys, all of my Spanish and Italian friends here in France find this term used in this context insulting and contemptuous.
All of my French friends and colleagues that I have discussed this with (and I have asked a lot of them over the weeks as a direct result of this thread) also find it offensive.
My English friends here find it offensive.
In short, everyone I have asked on this side of the channel finds it offensive and, like myself, can't understand why anyone couldn't see that it is.
So no, Im not "taking offence on behalf of others" a la lefty loonies and Daily Wail.
Sump Scraper, try calling the country of your "normal everyday folk" "porco" and see if they find it acceptable or not.
I'm quite bemused to be so apparently out of kilter with apparently everyone on PH, either that or others just aren't speaking up.
I shall stop now, it's getting ugly.
Ben, thanks for calling me a
, very classy man.
That is all very well, but I still don't understand why I should be offended.All of my French friends and colleagues that I have discussed this with (and I have asked a lot of them over the weeks as a direct result of this thread) also find it offensive.
My English friends here find it offensive.
In short, everyone I have asked on this side of the channel finds it offensive and, like myself, can't understand why anyone couldn't see that it is.
So no, Im not "taking offence on behalf of others" a la lefty loonies and Daily Wail.
Sump Scraper, try calling the country of your "normal everyday folk" "porco" and see if they find it acceptable or not.
I'm quite bemused to be so apparently out of kilter with apparently everyone on PH, either that or others just aren't speaking up.
I shall stop now, it's getting ugly.
Ben, thanks for calling me a
, very classy man.Edited by Driller on Thursday 23 February 16:23
Nobody is calling these countries "pigs", or "porco". They are using an acronym - PIIGS.
Don
--
_Batty_ said:
Of all the things to get offended about, a memorable acronym.
Shouldn't you and your euro friends be more offended by the state of the Eurocrats, openly lining their pockets and putting whole countries to decades of ruin for a dream?
Driller said:
All of my French friends and colleagues that I have discussed this with (and I have asked a lot of them over the weeks as a direct result of this thread) also find it offensive.
You're lying and have never asked anyone if they find it offensive. If you are going to argue at least pick something plausable.Perhaps the Wikipedia definition of an acronym would help you here.
0a said:
Driller said:
All of my French friends and colleagues that I have discussed this with (and I have asked a lot of them over the weeks as a direct result of this thread) also find it offensive.
You're lying and have never asked anyone if they find it offensive. If you are going to argue at least pick something plausable.Perhaps the Wikipedia definition of an acronym would help you here.
ks on him. Thank you for saving me the trouble of wasting further time on the sad fantasist.I have read the many posts over the last 24 hours and learnt a great deal. Some would say not before time.
Three essentials:
Firstly predicting the default of any country financially, is something of an art, not a science.
I think most PHer's would agree Greece is way beyond the point of solvency: that the attempts by the EU to keep Greece in the Euro are doomed: and that the collapse of Greece is inevitable shortly.
How long is shortly?
My estimate is weeks rather than months. Probably March 23rd.
But there is a fundamental fact that must be faced which is far more serious than the timing of the default of Greece.
A European country is going to default on its debts: this is desperately serious.
Greece will be riven with desperate people literally unable to feed their children. Or obtain welfare of any sort. Or Education. And more.
This is the most damning result of European stupidity and Greek fecklessness.
That will be just the start of the EU problems with failing EU states.
Frankly I doubt that anyone can predict what will happen once Greece goes bust. My guess is that the contagion will reduce Spain and Portugal to wrecks on the same economic rocks that caught Greece. And ultimately Italy
My second concern therefore is whether the EU could survive the collapse of Spain Portugal and Italy. I doubt it. Certainly not in the current format.
I cannot predict how long this second roll of collapse and subsequent reorganisation, will take. But I personally think Spain and Portugal will be out in less than a year.
Italy is the real key. I would expect huge efforts to hold the fourth largest nation in the EU inside the grouping. If the EU gets its centralised taxation legislation and the Tobin Tax through the subsidy Italy requires could be available. How long the rest of the EU will put up with assisting Italy to live beyond its means would be an open question.
If Italy goes IMO the EU goes. Once again time will tell.
May I make another point here.
This mess has become by far the greatest economic crisis in Europe in 100 years. How on earth is anyone expected to predict the outcome, when for 18 months even suggesting there was a problem was derided everywhere. Time has shown that the concerns were very well placed. The defaulters will default.
My predictions are the best I can make.
They are not written in stone and the outcome depends on how daft the EU will be.
My thoughts are that once Greece goes the EU will suddenly realise that the entire EU structure is under threat. The default of Greece will have a shattering effect upon the EU confidence IMO. The EU may well suddenly wake up and devise a plan to hold Italy up. I hope they do. I have no way of judging their determination and decision making post Greece defaulting.
Based on the EU performance to date, I fear the EU are simply not capable of solving these problems. I could be wrong.
Thirdly, IMO the term PIGS was introduced in this subject as a simple memorable acronym, intended to easily identify a group of countries, who were within the EU but clearly failing as economies. It was never intended as a slur or jibe and I have never thought of it as such.
I have been substituting defaulters as a group description, on this blog for some time. I suggest each contributor does the same. It satisfies any niceties.
Finally, please remember that the suggestion that there was a problem with Greece that would result in default was absolutely correct. The timing has been delayed by the Billions of Euros throw into delaying the default by the EU. But the assessment that Greece was hopelessly insolvent was right then, and is right now.
When the default of Greece come, which it will, the world will see Merkozy for what they are and the pressure will be on the EU, Portugal, Spain and Italy.
The EU will have failed to keep Greece in the Euro.
They will look like the weak minded dreamers that they are.
Can they keep the other defaulters inside the Euro.
Sadly I seriously doubt it.
Three essentials:
Firstly predicting the default of any country financially, is something of an art, not a science.
I think most PHer's would agree Greece is way beyond the point of solvency: that the attempts by the EU to keep Greece in the Euro are doomed: and that the collapse of Greece is inevitable shortly.
How long is shortly?
My estimate is weeks rather than months. Probably March 23rd.
But there is a fundamental fact that must be faced which is far more serious than the timing of the default of Greece.
A European country is going to default on its debts: this is desperately serious.
Greece will be riven with desperate people literally unable to feed their children. Or obtain welfare of any sort. Or Education. And more.
This is the most damning result of European stupidity and Greek fecklessness.
That will be just the start of the EU problems with failing EU states.
Frankly I doubt that anyone can predict what will happen once Greece goes bust. My guess is that the contagion will reduce Spain and Portugal to wrecks on the same economic rocks that caught Greece. And ultimately Italy
My second concern therefore is whether the EU could survive the collapse of Spain Portugal and Italy. I doubt it. Certainly not in the current format.
I cannot predict how long this second roll of collapse and subsequent reorganisation, will take. But I personally think Spain and Portugal will be out in less than a year.
Italy is the real key. I would expect huge efforts to hold the fourth largest nation in the EU inside the grouping. If the EU gets its centralised taxation legislation and the Tobin Tax through the subsidy Italy requires could be available. How long the rest of the EU will put up with assisting Italy to live beyond its means would be an open question.
If Italy goes IMO the EU goes. Once again time will tell.
May I make another point here.
This mess has become by far the greatest economic crisis in Europe in 100 years. How on earth is anyone expected to predict the outcome, when for 18 months even suggesting there was a problem was derided everywhere. Time has shown that the concerns were very well placed. The defaulters will default.
My predictions are the best I can make.
They are not written in stone and the outcome depends on how daft the EU will be.
My thoughts are that once Greece goes the EU will suddenly realise that the entire EU structure is under threat. The default of Greece will have a shattering effect upon the EU confidence IMO. The EU may well suddenly wake up and devise a plan to hold Italy up. I hope they do. I have no way of judging their determination and decision making post Greece defaulting.
Based on the EU performance to date, I fear the EU are simply not capable of solving these problems. I could be wrong.
Thirdly, IMO the term PIGS was introduced in this subject as a simple memorable acronym, intended to easily identify a group of countries, who were within the EU but clearly failing as economies. It was never intended as a slur or jibe and I have never thought of it as such.
I have been substituting defaulters as a group description, on this blog for some time. I suggest each contributor does the same. It satisfies any niceties.
Finally, please remember that the suggestion that there was a problem with Greece that would result in default was absolutely correct. The timing has been delayed by the Billions of Euros throw into delaying the default by the EU. But the assessment that Greece was hopelessly insolvent was right then, and is right now.
When the default of Greece come, which it will, the world will see Merkozy for what they are and the pressure will be on the EU, Portugal, Spain and Italy.
The EU will have failed to keep Greece in the Euro.
They will look like the weak minded dreamers that they are.
Can they keep the other defaulters inside the Euro.
Sadly I seriously doubt it.
Mermaid said:
_Batty_ said:
Of all the things to get offended about, a memorable acronym.
Shouldn't you and your euro friends be more offended by the state of the Eurocrats, openly lining their pockets and putting whole countries to decades of ruin for a dream?
Andy Zarse said:
0a said:
Driller said:
All of my French friends and colleagues that I have discussed this with (and I have asked a lot of them over the weeks as a direct result of this thread) also find it offensive.
You're lying and have never asked anyone if they find it offensive. If you are going to argue at least pick something plausable.Perhaps the Wikipedia definition of an acronym would help you here.
ks on him. Thank you for saving me the trouble of wasting further time on the sad fantasist.This is exactly the same arrogance shown with the Europe question and that which is used to justify the term for the so called defaulters. I say again, it is undefendable, you cannot call a country "PIIG" in any way, shape or form and say you respect that country. Someone is even denying any link to the animal which is laughable.
Your comments are infantile but such playground antics aside, you call me a liar.
So what do you want, a list of names or would just their relationship to me be enough?
My wife? My neighbours of which 7 families I am close friends with including 1 English couple who retired here and a Belgian. My work colleagues, 9 of them? My friends? Mostly French but a mixture of English, Spanish and Italian?
Is that enough or should I ask more, would you like me to ask them to post here? (bad idea maybe)
Open your mind, take the time to think there may be other people, decent, ordinary people who have a different point of view to this.
Driller said:
Andy Zarse said:
0a said:
Driller said:
All of my French friends and colleagues that I have discussed this with (and I have asked a lot of them over the weeks as a direct result of this thread) also find it offensive.
You're lying and have never asked anyone if they find it offensive. If you are going to argue at least pick something plausable.Perhaps the Wikipedia definition of an acronym would help you here.
ks on him. Thank you for saving me the trouble of wasting further time on the sad fantasist.This is exactly the same arrogance shown with the Europe question and that which is used to justify the term for the so called defaulters. I say again, it is undefendable, you cannot call a country "PIIG" in any way, shape or form and say you respect that country. Someone is even denying any link to the animal which is laughable.
Your comments are infantile but such playground antics aside, you call me a liar.
So what do you want, a list of names or would just their relationship to me be enough?
My wife? My neighbours of which 7 families I am close friends with including 1 English couple who retired here and a Belgian. My work colleagues, 9 of them? My friends? Mostly French but a mixture of English, Spanish and Italian?
Is that enough or should I ask more, would you like me to ask them to post here? (bad idea maybe)
Open your mind, take the time to think there may be other people, decent, ordinary people who have a different point of view to this.
...fking hell kid bet you're the sort that wanted school sports day abolished incase it upset the ones that did'nt win something..... Driller said:
My wife? My neighbours of which 7 families I am close friends with including 1 English couple who retired here and a Belgian. My work colleagues, 9 of them? My friends? Mostly French but a mixture of English, Spanish and Italian?
Is that enough or should I ask more, would you like me to ask them to post here?
This is not meant as a jibe, but perhaps the acronym (and the implications of what the EU has constructed) are more widely understood and accepted amongst business and finance people? Do you think this is where the divergence is, because I deal with firms all over the world - many in Europe - and also have family in Greece and the 'idea' of the PIIGS and the issues facing the EU and common currency were, I thought, part of everyday awareness.Is that enough or should I ask more, would you like me to ask them to post here?
Steffan, as regards greeks not being in a position to enjoy the benefits of normal society, an example which has been ongoing for months now for my neice and nephew is that their school is racked by rolling stikes - nephew's calss one day and the niece's the other - on a regular basis. Rubbish piles up in the streets, uncollected, workers are not being paid. It's all happening, already.
Just remembered two of the assistants have Portugese parents and the cleaning lady (40ish so not old generation) is actually Portugese. I'll ask them what they think of their countries being classed as "cochon" and let you know.
Just found this:
Just found this:
Wikipedia said:
The term was denounced as a pejorative by the Portuguese Finance Minister in 2008. Members of the international economic press continue to use the term. However, some organisations, notably the Financial Times (FT) and Barclays Capital, have restricted or banned the term.
Apparently I'm not the "only one" who finds it innappropriate then Driller said:
Just remembered two of the assistants have Portugese parents and the cleaning lady (40ish so not old generation) is actually Portugese. I'll ask them what they think of their countries being classed as "cochon" and let you know.
Just found this:
Yes, yes, we went through the FT and BarCap bit yesterday. That the 'Finance Minister' of a fiscally irresponsible government is upset - at the pecuniary ineptnes of the country being broadcast - should surprise no one. I should think majority of people who have the balifs call round would prefer the neighbours didn't witness it.Just found this:
Wikipedia said:
The term was denounced as a pejorative by the Portuguese Finance Minister in 2008. Members of the international economic press continue to use the term. However, some organisations, notably the Financial Times (FT) and Barclays Capital, have restricted or banned the term.
Apparently I'm not the "only one" who finds it innappropriate then Digga said:
his is not meant as a jibe, but perhaps the acronym (and the implications of what the EU has constructed) are more widely understood and accepted amongst business and finance people? Do you think this is where the divergence is, because I deal with firms all over the world - many in Europe - and also have family in Greece and the 'idea' of the PIIGS and the issues facing the EU and common currency were, I thought, part of everyday awareness.
Marcus, thank you for that, I agree that makes a lot of sense.The trouble is though even if it was not originally meant with any malice (although it's still pretty cheeky) I still think you have to consider the feelings of the people involved.
To be clear, none of the people I have spoken to have heard the term before and they were pretty outraged about it to be honest.
If you called a group of African nations the COONS even if you didn't mean it to spell that way you would have to consider that it would be innappropriate for the people involved even if it was considered amusing in an office somewhere.
Andy Zarse said:
I've never really understood leerng and I'm not sure how one goes about it.
Have a quick glance in the mirror, I'll think you'll find you're doing it permanently 
Meanwhile, those in the Eu not familiar with the term PIIGS, or the implications of the meltdown may soon feel the fallout:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/02/23/uk-europe...
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/02/23/uk-europe...
Reuters said:
The scars of Greece's debt crisis were laid bare in heavy losses from a string of European banks on Thursday, and bosses warned the region's precarious finances would continue to threaten economic growth and earnings.
This is only Greece. A comparatively tiny economy. We have to hope the 'plan' to shore up the others is more robust and workable.rovermorris999 said:
coyft said:
If you want to discuss whether PIIGS is a pejorative acronym, can you please start another thread.
^^This. It's getting tiresome. Handbags away ladies, please.Sorry again for the distraction.
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