Rape Gang - How'd they get away with it for so long?

[longblackcoat]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Good post, well-argued.

[Countdown]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I can completely understand where your coming from, based on what has been published about the rapists. FWIW in my opinion it’s a combination of them being Pakistani/ Mirpuri / Muslim and the businesses they operate in.

From what I’ve seen most of the offenders are cabbies/takeaway owners who generally come into contact with a high proportion of people going for a “night out”. (this tends to be Pakistani muslims)So they see women dressed in a certain way, perhaps acting in a manner they consider to be promiscuous, getting drunk, flirting, kissing guys etc.

Now combine this with the fact that most of them will have been raised in a society that (more or less) forbids social contact with women outside of the immediate family before marriage. This probably isn’t due to want of trying, but more due to the restrictions placed upon muslim girls pre-marriage, combined with the risk of getting a good kicking from any of her male relatives. So, on the one hand, they’ve been led to believe that “good” girls/women behave in a certain way. Secondly they can’t even get close to any girls from their own community because it’s too risky. OTOH they see other women behaving in a manner they’ve been taught is “bad”. I’m not a psychiatrist but perhaps this makes them think it’s OK to do what they’ve done because the girls are “less worthy”/”sluts”/”asking for it”, in the same way that rapists try to justify their actions

The ONLY reason it’s young impressionable vulnerable white girls is specifically because they are young, impressionable and vulnerable and there were only white girls available. The majority of normal women wouldn’t p155 on them if they were on fire and they’re probably too tight to pay for sex.. A fat balding middle-aged taxi driver with BO on less than minimum wage is hardly Casanova material yet stupid enough and perverted enough to justify to himself that this kind of behaviour is acceptable.

I’m of mirpuri origin. What these gangs have done sickens me to the pit of my stomach and that feeling is shared by every Pakistani I’ve spoken to. It’s abhorrent on so many levels and it contradicts so much of the stuff that was drummed into us as young kids when we attended mosque; the stuff about not drinking, not taking drugs, pre-marital sex. I’m generally quite liberal but I really really hope they’re sodomised extensively in prison.

[andymadmak]

Countdown said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Reasonable stuff

OK,one question. Genuine. Given that we are talking about groups of men here, not lone predators, it would be reasonable to assume that quite a few people within the community know what these blokes are up to... Presumably also the wider community shares your utter abhorrence at the actions of these criminals.....That being the case, why is it that the wider community does not turn these men into the police instead of closing ranks to shield them?

[Countdown]

andymadmak said:

OK,one question. Genuine. Given that we are talking about groups of men here, not lone predators, it would be reasonable to assume that quite a few people within the community know what these blokes are up to... Presumably also the wider community shares your utter abhorrence at the actions of these criminals.....That being the case, why is it that the wider community does not turn these men into the police instead of closing ranks to shield them?

The people involved in this stuff are not the type that most decent muslims mix with socially because chances are they’re involved in other stuff such as drugs. You might think we’re some sort of close-knit community where everybody knows what everybody else is up to. It’s not the case. We’ll know that so-and-so is “scum”, apart from a passing hello we wouldn’t mix with them and we make sure our kids stay away from them

So, prior to all the recent stuff in the media, the wider muslim community would just have assumed that Ahmed “had a white girlfriend”, and “that was only to be expected because he drank alcohol, smoked weed, sold drugs etc). To Ahmed’s immediate family he would either not have admitted it because his dad would have leathered him or they don’t talk about it because they assume he’s just having an affair and “all white girls have boyfriends and sleep around before marriage anyway”

If he’s older and married his wife would have been too scared to say anything in case he divorces her and throws her out. I doubt that she would have known about the girls being forced to use drugs and alcohol either or that they were in social care.

Only those who were involved in the grooming would have known the extent of what they were doing. To anybody outside the ring it was either assumed that they were girlfriends or prostitutes. Based on that how could anybody go to the Police?

To try and put it into some kind of context no doubt you’ll be aware of all the other famous sex offenders that have been in the news. The same question could be applied there – “why didn’t their close friends/family speak up”? It’s because they either didn’t know or assumed that the girls were somehow complicit.

[anonymous-user]

^^^
That makes me realise how naive and sheltered my life is/has been.

[andymadmak]

OK, Let me start by thanking you for answering my post. However,

Countdown said:

The people involved in this stuff are not the type that most decent muslims mix with socially because chances are they’re involved in other stuff such as drugs. You might think we’re some sort of close-knit community where everybody knows what everybody else is up to. It’s not the case. We’ll know that so-and-so is “scum”, apart from a passing hello we wouldn’t mix with them and we make sure our kids stay away from them

Understood. You appear to know who the bad eggs are, but you choose not to mix with them. Fair enough.. Although, surely seeing a fat 40 year old "scum" with a drugged up 12 year old girlfriend ought to have rung a few alarm bells regardless?

Countdown said:

So, prior to all the recent stuff in the media, the wider muslim community would just have assumed that Ahmed “had a white girlfriend”, and “that was only to be expected because he drank alcohol, smoked weed, sold drugs etc). To Ahmed’s immediate family he would either not have admitted it because his dad would have leathered him or they don’t talk about it because they assume he’s just having an affair and “all white girls have boyfriends and sleep around before marriage anyway”

Ahh, so the attitude is racist then. A racist stereotype is applied to white girls and that justifies their treatment in the eyes of the community. All white girls sleep around eh? Charming! I suppose all black kids are gang members and thieves........ yes? Based on our current knowledge, should the rest of the population ascribe a nasty stereotype to the Muslim community? If so, what do you think it should be? Presumably you can guess what many people would vote for! I bet you'd be offended too. In fact I bet you'd call us white folks racist for our troubles. But it's ok to rape little white girls cos they all have boyfriends and sleep around before marriage is what you are saying your community thinks.. Breath taking hypocrisy!

Countdown said:

If he’s older and married his wife would have been too scared to say anything in case he divorces her and throws her out. I doubt that she would have known about the girls being forced to use drugs and alcohol either or that they were in social care.

Convenient

Countdown said:

Only those who were involved in the grooming would have known the extent of what they were doing. To anybody outside the ring it was either assumed that they were girlfriends or prostitutes. Based on that how could anybody go to the Police?

Soooooo... it's assumed that 50 year old guys would have 12 year old girlfriends is it? No credibility!

Countdown said:

To try and put it into some kind of context no doubt you’ll be aware of all the other famous sex offenders that have been in the news. The same question could be applied there – “why didn’t their close friends/family speak up”? It’s because they either didn’t know or assumed that the girls were somehow complicit.

We are not talking about "lone wolf" attackers (as Saville et al appear to have been) but rather organised groups and gangs, who had links to other gangs and groups in cities across the UK. Your blase dismissal of the conspiracy of silence shown by the community towards these offences is horrific.

[Pesty]

Groups of men were queuing outside houses waiting to take their turns.

One girl was raped by around 30/40 people during one weekend.

That is very very hard not to notice.

[Mermaid]

andymadmak said:

OK, Let me start by thanking you for answering my post. However,

Countdown said:

The people involved in this stuff are not the type that most decent muslims mix with socially because chances are they’re involved in other stuff such as drugs. You might think we’re some sort of close-knit community where everybody knows what everybody else is up to. It’s not the case. We’ll know that so-and-so is “scum”, apart from a passing hello we wouldn’t mix with them and we make sure our kids stay away from them

Understood. You appear to know who the bad eggs are, but you choose not to mix with them. Fair enough.. Although, surely seeing a fat 40 year old "scum" with a drugged up 12 year old girlfriend ought to have rung a few alarm bells regardless?

Countdown said:

So, prior to all the recent stuff in the media, the wider muslim community would just have assumed that Ahmed “had a white girlfriend”, and “that was only to be expected because he drank alcohol, smoked weed, sold drugs etc). To Ahmed’s immediate family he would either not have admitted it because his dad would have leathered him or they don’t talk about it because they assume he’s just having an affair and “all white girls have boyfriends and sleep around before marriage anyway”

Ahh, so the attitude is racist then. A racist stereotype is applied to white girls and that justifies their treatment in the eyes of the community. All white girls sleep around eh? Charming! I suppose all black kids are gang members and thieves........ yes? Based on our current knowledge, should the rest of the population ascribe a nasty stereotype to the Muslim community? If so, what do you think it should be? Presumably you can guess what many people would vote for! I bet you'd be offended too. In fact I bet you'd call us white folks racist for our troubles. But it's ok to rape little white girls cos they all have boyfriends and sleep around before marriage is what you are saying your community thinks.. Breath taking hypocrisy!

Countdown said:

If he’s older and married his wife would have been too scared to say anything in case he divorces her and throws her out. I doubt that she would have known about the girls being forced to use drugs and alcohol either or that they were in social care.

Convenient

Countdown said:

Only those who were involved in the grooming would have known the extent of what they were doing. To anybody outside the ring it was either assumed that they were girlfriends or prostitutes. Based on that how could anybody go to the Police?

Soooooo... it's assumed that 50 year old guys would have 12 year old girlfriends is it? No credibility!

Countdown said:

To try and put it into some kind of context no doubt you’ll be aware of all the other famous sex offenders that have been in the news. The same question could be applied there – “why didn’t their close friends/family speak up”? It’s because they either didn’t know or assumed that the girls were somehow complicit.

We are not talking about "lone wolf" attackers (as Saville et al appear to have been) but rather organised groups and gangs, who had links to other gangs and groups in cities across the UK. Your blase dismissal of the conspiracy of silence shown by the community towards these offences is horrific.

The day Muslims get angry, very angry, about these issues will be the turning point. Most, if not all, keep batting for their side - no matter how crap it is. Long term damage being done here - to all Asians, not just Pakistanis.

[M@verick]

andymadmak said:

Quoting Countdown

I think you've taken Countdown out of context there - I read his post as saying "the perpetrators of this crime are known as scum by the wider muslim community", and then hypothesising that "this is how said scum might think" - rather than him saying this is how the wider muslim community itself thinks. So I think that's a bit harsh.

However - I agree, the only way this sort of problem can be policed is from within, and if the wider muslim community know said perpetrator to be scum as described and see strange goings on - that's the sort of thing that should be being reported or dealt with internally - preferably harshly, *before* it becomes a crime of this magnitude.

R.

Edited by M@verick on Monday 13th May 16:05

[Digga]

OpulentBob said:

^^^
That makes me realise how naive and sheltered my life is/has been.

The trouble is, a lot of people, vested with a lot of power - in politics, law, policing, social services and the media - have had similarly sheltered backgrounds but have been making decisions on our behalf in ignorance of the plain facts of reality.

[andymadmak]

M@verick said:

I think you've taken Countdown out of context there - I read his post as saying "the perpetrators of this crime are known as scum by the wider muslim community", and then hypothesising that "this is how said scum might think" - rather than him speaking for the wider muslim community itself. So I think that's a bit harsh.

However - I agree, the only way this sort of problem can be policed is from within, and if the wider muslim community know said perpetrator to be scum as described and see strange goings on - that's the sort of thing that should be being reported or dealt with internally - preferably harshly, *before* it becomes a crime of this magnitude.

R.

I didn't change a word of his post, so I don't think I took anything out of context. I read his post as saying " Good Muslim folk know who the scum are and so avoid them. When they see said Scum out with a young white girl they just assume it's a prostitute or his girlfriend, cos all white girls sleep around before marriage anyway".
The fact that the girl may be 12 years old, drugged up or pissed, transported in from another town/city and there might be a queue of 40 blokes waiting to take turns on her in the flat above Ali's Kebab shop is completely normal behaviour and not something which should arouse suspicion within the community....

[Pesty]

M@verick said:

andymadmak said:

Quoting Countdown

I think you've taken Countdown out of context there - I read his post as saying "the perpetrators of this crime are known as scum by the wider muslim community", and then hypothesising that "this is how said scum might think" - rather than him saying this is how the wider muslim community itself thinks. So I think that's a bit harsh.

However - I agree, the only way this sort of problem can be policed is from within, and if the wider muslim community know said perpetrator to be scum as described and see strange goings on - that's the sort of thing that should be being reported or dealt with internally - preferably harshly, *before* it becomes a crime of this magnitude.

R.

Edited by M@verick on Monday 13th May 16:05

20 years ago in Rotherham a Muslim taxi driver was arrested and detained in a local police station. The wider local Muslim community had a riot outside the station so serious that the police let the man out to keep the peace.

Has anybody here rioted outside the local police station when a member of their community got arrested? There is something in the Muslim culture and religion it seems to me that means they stick together and defend each other.
Just my impression.

Does the Koran have anything to say about dobbing in a fellow Muslim to a kafir? Pretty sure it does and we all know that with such a prescriptive religion you never question the book.

Edited by Pesty on Monday 13th May 16:17

[andymadmak]

Pesty said:

20 years ago in Rotherham a Muslim taxi driver was arrested and detained in a local police station. The wider local Muslim community had a riot outside the station so serious that the police let the man out to keep the peace.

Has anybody here rioted outside the local police station when a member of their community got arrested? There is something in the Muslim culture and religion it seems to me that means they stick together and defend each other.
Just my impression.

Strange isn't it. Muslims will riot when one is arrested. They riot when someone writes a book about the Prophet. They even riot when someone draws a cartoon or two. They riot when someone says something they don't like. But when they find out that members of their community are involved in raping children, systematically, over an extended period, with groups linked from city to city, town to town, involving drugs and violence, then the streets are empty and the silence is deafening.

Should we conclude that the wider community is ashamed? Or should we conclude that the thinking in the community is that, on balance, taking everything into account, the white girls deserved everything they got?

[Mermaid]

andymadmak said:

Pesty said:

20 years ago in Rotherham a Muslim taxi driver was arrested and detained in a local police station. The wider local Muslim community had a riot outside the station so serious that the police let the man out to keep the peace.

Has anybody here rioted outside the local police station when a member of their community got arrested? There is something in the Muslim culture and religion it seems to me that means they stick together and defend each other.
Just my impression.

Strange isn't it. Muslims will riot when one is arrested. They riot when someone writes a book about the Prophet. They even riot when someone draws a cartoon or two. They riot when someone says something they don't like. But when they find out that members of their community are involved in raping children, systematically, over an extended period, with groups linked from city to city, town to town, involving drugs and violence, then the streets are empty and the silence is deafening.

Should we conclude that the wider community is ashamed? Or should we conclude that the thinking in the community is that, on balance, taking everything into account, the white girls deserved everything they got?

If non Pakistanis mount a campaign to target young Pakistani girls. the roar will be deafening.

[longblackcoat]

andymadmak said:

Strange isn't it. Muslims will riot when one is arrested. They riot when someone writes a book about the Prophet. They even riot when someone draws a cartoon or two. They riot when someone says something they don't like. But when they find out that members of their community are involved in raping children, systematically, over an extended period, with groups linked from city to city, town to town, involving drugs and violence, then the streets are empty and the silence is deafening.

Should we conclude that the wider community is ashamed? Or should we conclude that the thinking in the community is that, on balance, taking everything into account, the white girls deserved everything they got?

Anyone would think you had a problem with Muslims in general rather than the criminals who happen to come from a particualr racial/ethnic background.

[pad58]

longblackcoat said:

andymadmak said:

Strange isn't it. Muslims will riot when one is arrested. They riot when someone writes a book about the Prophet. They even riot when someone draws a cartoon or two. They riot when someone says something they don't like. But when they find out that members of their community are involved in raping children, systematically, over an extended period, with groups linked from city to city, town to town, involving drugs and violence, then the streets are empty and the silence is deafening.

Should we conclude that the wider community is ashamed? Or should we conclude that the thinking in the community is that, on balance, taking everything into account, the white girls deserved everything they got?

Anyone would think you had a problem with Muslims in general rather than the criminals who happen to come from a particualr racial/ethnic background.

He's right though.Why is this?

[andymadmak]

longblackcoat said:

andymadmak said:

Strange isn't it. Muslims will riot when one is arrested. They riot when someone writes a book about the Prophet. They even riot when someone draws a cartoon or two. They riot when someone says something they don't like. But when they find out that members of their community are involved in raping children, systematically, over an extended period, with groups linked from city to city, town to town, involving drugs and violence, then the streets are empty and the silence is deafening.

Should we conclude that the wider community is ashamed? Or should we conclude that the thinking in the community is that, on balance, taking everything into account, the white girls deserved everything they got?

Anyone would think you had a problem with Muslims in general rather than the criminals who happen to come from a particualr racial/ethnic background.

Oooh, Nice attempt at a veiled smear! No, I have no problems with Muslims per se. What I do have a problem with is the pattern that is emerging: It's bad enough that the perpetrators do what they do. It's worse that the community of which they are a part does not seem to think the behaviour warrants protest, despite the same community being prepared to protest most vocally about just about anything that offends them. Conclusion? The systematic gang rape of white girls does not offend them sufficiently for them to speak out, despite the damage that the actions of the few in their midst is doing to the reputations of the majority. Why do you suppose that is?

[Countdown]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Absolutely. And whilst each new case makes me sick I'm glad it's being exposed. This is a cancer that's spread much further than most of us realised

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Genuine question - have you reported this to the Police?

The reason I ask is that I've seen similar streets - in Burnley, Brierfield, Keighley, and Bradford. But exactly what I'm supposed to report to the Police I have no idea. The conversation would go something like this; "Thre's this asian lad with a Q7, he's about 22, might be older. he lives near Haslam Park, just off Deane Road. Not absolutely sure where. Yeah, he deals drugs. No I haven't actually seen him dealing but he must be...there's actually a few of them that hang around together. I think one's called Bilal, no I don't know where he lives but I've seen him in an A5...."

I'm sure their nearest and dearest know exactly what they're up to. But they have no interest in reporting them. Why this is assumed to be something special to the asian community I've no idea. As a member of the white community do you know ALL the white criminals in your area (in sufficient detail to report them to the Police?. Do you think the majority of black people know who the black criminals are?

[Countdown]

andymadmak said:

It's worse that the community of which they are a part does not seem to think the behaviour warrants protest, despite the same community being prepared to protest most vocally about just about anything that offends them. Conclusion? The systematic gang rape of white girls does not offend them sufficiently for them to speak out, despite the damage that the actions of the few in their midst is doing to the reputations of the majority. Why do you suppose that is?

There's been plenty of stuff in the media where bodies such as the MCB and LCC have condemned it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22056685

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/1040706...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vojTfpGYQiQ

Not wishing to stray from the subject but would you expect ordinary white people to be protesting about white paedophiles, or roman catholics to be protesting about paedophile acts by RC priests? What exactly would be the purpose of the protest ?

[Muntu]

Oxford (11/5/13):

Oxford Times said:

AN 11th man has been charged with sexually abusing teenage girls by police working on the Operation Bullfinch child exploitation investigation.

Shah-Nawaz Khan, of Botley Road in Oxford, has been charged with sexual activity with a girl aged between 13 and 15 and two counts of sexual assault. The charges relate to two girls, said police.

The 22-year-old is next due to appear at Oxford Crown Court on July 19 for a plea and case management hearing.

Police charged Khan in March but did not release this information to the public. A spokeswoman said this was an unintentional error

A jury at the Old Bailey is currently deliberating on charges faced by nine men in relation to allegations six girls were sexually abused and exploited by a gang.

...

Nine defendants deny 66 charges. They are: Kamar Jamil, 27, of Aldrich Road, Summertown, Oxford; Akhtar Dogar, 32, of Tawney Street, East Oxford; Anjum Dogar, 31, of Tawney Street, East Oxford; Assad Hussain, 32, of Ashhurst Way, Rose Hill, Oxford; Mohammed Karrar, 38, of Kames Close, Cowley; Bassam Karrar, 33, of Hundred Acres Close, Cowley; Mohammed Hussain, 25, of Horspath Road, Cowley, Oxford; Zeeshan Ahmed, 27, of Palmer Road, Wood Farm, Oxford; Bilal Ahmed, 26, of Suffolk Road, Maidenhead

http://www.oxfordtimes.co.uk/news/10413625.Child_sex_investigation_police_charge_11th_man/