Julian Assange loses extradition appeal at Supreme Court
Discussion
4x4Tyke said:
jshell said:
Whether or not the US would drag him out of Sweden, it is very strange to people the lengths the Swedes have gone to to get someone extraditied who is guilty, at worst, of removing a condom during concensual sex. I have direct experience of the Scandinavian justice system in relation to sex crime and rape allegations and it is highly stacked against investigation, prosecution, trial or conviction.
There is something very, very fishy about the Swedes' actions in this matter...
Nonsense, withdrawn consent is rape, and the UK extradition judge accepted there was a case to answer.There is something very, very fishy about the Swedes' actions in this matter...
jshell said:
The women didn't complain of rape, they wanted him trsted for STD's.
The authorities got involved and persuaded the women to pursue rape charges later.
This isn't the least bit fishy to you?
No not fishy, but I find your decision to consider internet scuttlebutt more reliable than an extradition judge intriguing.The authorities got involved and persuaded the women to pursue rape charges later.
This isn't the least bit fishy to you?
It's not fishy at all. If someone wanted him extradited they wouldn't do some convoluted pantomime to get him back to Sweden, they'd just put the request in.
He was accused of a sexual crime and put under investigation. He ran away. Strangely enough this sort of thing upsets the authorities so they pursued him. UK authorities assessed the request and ruled against him. He ran away again. Yet again this sort of thing upsets the authorities so they pursued him. He is still wanted for jumping bail regardless of anything else.
Nowhere in any of this tale of a self promoting narcissist do I see where the US authorities gain any advantage to do something they couldn't already do.
At least Assange has done the world a favour by locking himself in a small room for a few years. When he finally decides to come out I suspect he has more to worry about from the former supporters whose bail money he forfeited than he does from any government.
He was accused of a sexual crime and put under investigation. He ran away. Strangely enough this sort of thing upsets the authorities so they pursued him. UK authorities assessed the request and ruled against him. He ran away again. Yet again this sort of thing upsets the authorities so they pursued him. He is still wanted for jumping bail regardless of anything else.
Nowhere in any of this tale of a self promoting narcissist do I see where the US authorities gain any advantage to do something they couldn't already do.
At least Assange has done the world a favour by locking himself in a small room for a few years. When he finally decides to come out I suspect he has more to worry about from the former supporters whose bail money he forfeited than he does from any government.
Not just an extradition Judge but the Justices of the Supreme Court as well. But hey, what do they know compared to some dude who read some stuff on a website?
Again, apply the rule - why do complicated when you can do simple? If the US were setting Assange up, why not invent a case against him in the UK, where he happened to be? No need for indirect routing via Sweden. If the plan was to use rendition, why not execute that plan while Assange was living at his supporter's pad, before he took refuge in the Embassy of a country ruled by corrupt and repressive regime?
Mr High Principled Freedom Fighter, eh? Strange that Wikileaks doesn't do much dirt dishing on Ecuador, eh?
Again, apply the rule - why do complicated when you can do simple? If the US were setting Assange up, why not invent a case against him in the UK, where he happened to be? No need for indirect routing via Sweden. If the plan was to use rendition, why not execute that plan while Assange was living at his supporter's pad, before he took refuge in the Embassy of a country ruled by corrupt and repressive regime?
Mr High Principled Freedom Fighter, eh? Strange that Wikileaks doesn't do much dirt dishing on Ecuador, eh?
4x4Tyke said:
jshell said:
Whether or not the US would drag him out of Sweden, it is very strange to people the lengths the Swedes have gone to to get someone extraditied who is guilty, at worst, of removing a condom during concensual sex. I have direct experience of the Scandinavian justice system in relation to sex crime and rape allegations and it is highly stacked against investigation, prosecution, trial or conviction.
There is something very, very fishy about the Swedes' actions in this matter...
Nonsense, withdrawn consent is rape, and the UK extradition judge accepted there was a case to answer.There is something very, very fishy about the Swedes' actions in this matter...
Breadvan72 said:
4x4Tyke said:
Breadvan72 said:
Mr High Principled Freedom Fighter, eh? Strange that Wikileaks doesn't do much dirt dishing on Ecuador, eh?
... and drawn to my attention recently, Wikileaks have published nothing on Ukraine, Crimea, Russian mess.What some of us are talking about is the fact that a Scandinavian country where it is almost impossible to bring a rape case to court, or even worse get a conviction, has spent the time and money trying to extradite Assange on the basis of this case.
I've lived there. There are huge volumes of sex crime, and I'm not talking about those carried out by new arrivals. I've seen a number of cases where the women either get beaten up by the justice system, or they cannot get any decent investigation carried out at all. The Andrea Vollum case is one where finally someone stood up to drug rapists, local boys who passed a 19yr old around. She, for the first time challenged the judiciary by publishing the names and faces of her attackers and the judges who wanted to release them. It was a bit of a turning point... Hopefully Andrea will get some justice.
Again, there is something rotten about the Swedish pursuit of Assange for these allegations. Like it, or like it not!
jshell said:
...
Again, there is something rotten about the Swedish pursuit of Assange for these allegations. Like it, or like it not!
Maybe, maybe not.Again, there is something rotten about the Swedish pursuit of Assange for these allegations. Like it, or like it not!
Should they not pursue Assange and further underscore your views on them chasing down rape?
I would think pure stats are difficult to interpret, but police recorded rape cases in Sweden appear to be 4x-5x higher than here (figures up to 2010). And according to the BBC in 2012, Sweden has the highest conviction rate in Europe for it...
The situation may well have changed in the last 5-7yrs, but neither of those figures suggests the Swedes take rape less seriously than elsewhere?
Murph7355 said:
jshell said:
...
Again, there is something rotten about the Swedish pursuit of Assange for these allegations. Like it, or like it not!
Maybe, maybe not.Again, there is something rotten about the Swedish pursuit of Assange for these allegations. Like it, or like it not!
Should they not pursue Assange and further underscore your views on them chasing down rape?
I would think pure stats are difficult to interpret, but police recorded rape cases in Sweden appear to be 4x-5x higher than here (figures up to 2010). And according to the BBC in 2012, Sweden has the highest conviction rate in Europe for it...
The situation may well have changed in the last 5-7yrs, but neither of those figures suggests the Swedes take rape less seriously than elsewhere?
Statistical factors
Unlike the majority of countries in Europe, crime data in Sweden are collected when the offence in question is first reported, at which point the classification may be unclear. In Sweden, once an act has been registered as rape, it retains this classification in the published crime statistics, even if later investigations indicate that no crime can be proven or if the offence must be given an alternative judicial classification.
Sweden also applies a system of expansive offence counts. Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. The Swedish police registers one offence for each person raped, and if one and the same person has been raped on a number of occasions, one offence is counted for each occasion that can be specified. For example, if a woman says she has been raped by her husband every day during a month, the Swedish police may record more than 30 cases of rape. In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation
jshell said:
...
Sweden also applies a system of expansive offence counts. Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. The Swedish police registers one offence for each person raped, and if one and the same person has been raped on a number of occasions, one offence is counted for each occasion that can be specified. For example, if a woman says she has been raped by her husband every day during a month, the Swedish police may record more than 30 cases of rape. In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation
Which sounds like a reasonable way to record them. No?Sweden also applies a system of expansive offence counts. Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. The Swedish police registers one offence for each person raped, and if one and the same person has been raped on a number of occasions, one offence is counted for each occasion that can be specified. For example, if a woman says she has been raped by her husband every day during a month, the Swedish police may record more than 30 cases of rape. In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation
It doesn't sound like them not taking it seriously.
If the conviction rates were materially lower, then I think it might support your assertion. Plenty are getting logged but no convictions would suggest either the way the initial report is made is not great or the way they are investigated/prosecuted isn't. But plenty getting reported and a higher conviction rate seems to work against that?
I guess, from what you note above, it could be a relatively small number of individuals going through the system. But I'm not sure that makes much sense, and would surely only indicate that enough unique individuals are reporting these crimes? Unless they are trying to and they're just not being logged??
Perhaps if Mr Assange had remained in Sweden to face his accuser, or hopped on a RyanAir to Stockholm as soon as it became clear he was wanted for questioning the Swedish government wouldn't have had to make a big deal about getting him back there. But people legging it and taking the piss with a judicial system tends to be seem pretty dimly by the nation of the judicial system usually. Otherwise their judicial system risks falling apart by people just buggering off until the dust settles
Murph7355 said:
Which sounds like a reasonable way to record them. No?
It doesn't sound like them not taking it seriously.
If the conviction rates were materially lower, then I think it might support your assertion. Plenty are getting logged but no convictions would suggest either the way the initial report is made is not great or the way they are investigated/prosecuted isn't. But plenty getting reported and a higher conviction rate seems to work against that?
I guess, from what you note above, it could be a relatively small number of individuals going through the system. But I'm not sure that makes much sense, and would surely only indicate that enough unique individuals are reporting these crimes? Unless they are trying to and they're just not being logged??
Perhaps if Mr Assange had remained in Sweden to face his accuser, or hopped on a RyanAir to Stockholm as soon as it became clear he was wanted for questioning the Swedish government wouldn't have had to make a big deal about getting him back there. But people legging it and taking the piss with a judicial system tends to be seem pretty dimly by the nation of the judicial system usually. Otherwise their judicial system risks falling apart by people just buggering off until the dust settles
Look, in many ways I'm not disagreeing with you, but there's a difference between reports and investigations/convictions. I believe, through personal experience that the Scandinavian justice system is stacked against the, mostly, female victims.It doesn't sound like them not taking it seriously.
If the conviction rates were materially lower, then I think it might support your assertion. Plenty are getting logged but no convictions would suggest either the way the initial report is made is not great or the way they are investigated/prosecuted isn't. But plenty getting reported and a higher conviction rate seems to work against that?
I guess, from what you note above, it could be a relatively small number of individuals going through the system. But I'm not sure that makes much sense, and would surely only indicate that enough unique individuals are reporting these crimes? Unless they are trying to and they're just not being logged??
Perhaps if Mr Assange had remained in Sweden to face his accuser, or hopped on a RyanAir to Stockholm as soon as it became clear he was wanted for questioning the Swedish government wouldn't have had to make a big deal about getting him back there. But people legging it and taking the piss with a judicial system tends to be seem pretty dimly by the nation of the judicial system usually. Otherwise their judicial system risks falling apart by people just buggering off until the dust settles
I don't know what would have happened to Assange, and in this country I would have said he should have given himself up. However, I'm unshaken in thinking that the pursual of him, by Sweden, with those allegations is covered by the whiff of rodent.
You still come up against the problem that the alleged plan to get Assange to Sweden so that the US could grab him is simply a bonkers plan. He was in the UK, then bezzy mates with the US, and for a while was easy to grab without any diplomatic kerfuffle. Trying to send him to Sweden on some possibly wobbly potential charges, so that Sweden could then participate in a breach of international law and help have Assange hoiked off to the US is just too complicated and silly.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 9th October 15:51
Finlandia said:
The preliminary BRÅ report for 2017 looks depressing, rapes up by 16% while the rape conviction rate goes down to 8%. At the same time one has to remember the BRÅ report from 2014, only 1 in 6 rapes are reported to the police.
What are the equivalent figures for other states (Scandinavian, EU, 1st World etc)? I was under the impression that similar patterns (outright numbers less meaningful perhaps owing to differences in classification) exist in most places (not many actually reported, converting those that are into convictions being fraught etc).Murph7355 said:
Finlandia said:
The preliminary BRÅ report for 2017 looks depressing, rapes up by 16% while the rape conviction rate goes down to 8%. At the same time one has to remember the BRÅ report from 2014, only 1 in 6 rapes are reported to the police.
What are the equivalent figures for other states (Scandinavian, EU, 1st World etc)? I was under the impression that similar patterns (outright numbers less meaningful perhaps owing to differences in classification) exist in most places (not many actually reported, converting those that are into convictions being fraught etc).There needs to be more than that data to support the conclusion that the Swedish justice system 'doesn't care' and thus the extradition request is atypical.
La Liga said:
Murph7355 said:
Finlandia said:
The preliminary BRÅ report for 2017 looks depressing, rapes up by 16% while the rape conviction rate goes down to 8%. At the same time one has to remember the BRÅ report from 2014, only 1 in 6 rapes are reported to the police.
What are the equivalent figures for other states (Scandinavian, EU, 1st World etc)? I was under the impression that similar patterns (outright numbers less meaningful perhaps owing to differences in classification) exist in most places (not many actually reported, converting those that are into convictions being fraught etc).There needs to be more than that data to support the conclusion that the Swedish justice system 'doesn't care' and thus the extradition request is atypical.
Polisen hinner inte med våldtäkter på grund av mord
Anmälningarna om sexuella övergrepp prioriteras bort när polisens få resurser läggs på mord och mordförsök. Statistik som SVT Nyheter tagit fram visar att allt färre anmälningar om våldtäkt leder till åtal.
Google translate:
The police do not cope with rape because of murder
The reports of sexual assault are not prioritized when the police's resources are put to murder and attempted murder investigations. Statistics as shown by SVT News has shown that fewer rapes lead to prosecution
ETA
https://www.thelocal.se/20090428/19124
Sweden needs to do much more to clamp down on rapists, according to reports from Amnesty International and the United Nations. Jennifer Heape examines the disparity between the country's high incidence of rape and its low conviction rate.
Edited by Finlandia on Monday 9th October 16:49
frankenstein12 said:
AJL308 said:
minimoog said:
Word on the tweet is that the Ecuadorian embassy are about to kick him out.
He'll probably be in a Trump Tower suite by xmas.
No he won't. He is still wanted in this Country and will be arrested (and rightly so) as soon as he leaves the embassy. He'll probably be in a Trump Tower suite by xmas.
In my view the embassy should have been entered and the police should have removed him. Harbouring fugitives is a gross abuse of consular status.
He is a person who is liable to lawful arrest by the British police. Harbouring a person who is unlawfully at large is a gross abuse of consular status.
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