Are all Ukrainians dangerous racists?

[skinley]

Zaxxon said:

skinley said:

I wouldn't have thought that there are many Jewish neo-nazis.

Yep, cause Nazi's only sent Jews to the concentration camps didn't they....

Not at all, but they didn't send themselves to concentration camps either, so why would neo-nazis exterminate themselves?

[Goa'uld]

DonkeyApple said:

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Thursday 7th June 10:32

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ882QYzr-M

[Alfa numeric]

skinley said:

Zaxxon said:

skinley said:

I wouldn't have thought that there are many Jewish neo-nazis.

Yep, cause Nazi's only sent Jews to the concentration camps didn't they....

Not at all, but they didn't send themselves to concentration camps either, so why would neo-nazis exterminate themselves?

Because the Nazis considered the Slavs to be inferior and worthy of only slavery or death. It was illegal for an aryan to have sex with a Slav for instance, a crime punished with prison for the German and execution for the Slav.

So in essence the Ukranians Nazis that venerate Hitler want to exterminate themselves.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

skinley said:

Zaxxon said:

skinley said:

I wouldn't have thought that there are many Jewish neo-nazis.

Yep, cause Nazi's only sent Jews to the concentration camps didn't they....

Not at all, but they didn't send themselves to concentration camps either, so why would neo-nazis exterminate themselves?

I think the point is when Hitler swept thru Eastern Europe, most Eastern Europeans were fair game, Slavs were deemed racially inferior, and Bolsheviks were deemed intellectually inferior.

Most of the neo Nazis that appear at football matches in reasonabley large numbers all over Eastern Europe wouldn't be alive today if the Nazis had won. They would have been gassed eventually.

[skinley]

Ahh. I see.

[anonymous-user]

iphonedyou said:

pablo said:

The Panorama documentary was laughable

Really?

Not how I'd get my kicks. If you'll pardon the pun

Obtuseness aside, I do think the problem is very bad, and racism in particular seems endemic, even if outright violence may not be. Though I have my doubts about that, also. I think I'd struggle to argue that England is currently as bad, based on what I've seen of both (and I'm from Northern Ireland, so I suppose I'm not quite as biased as if I was from England or Ukraine!)

I think that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is currently advising ethnic minorities that they're at greater risk of violent crime says something. I trust they're not influenced by Panorama or the Daily Mail.

The country has fairly serious issues with police racism, too. To be honest, even the most cursory glance of Google will yield a wealth of information from impartial, non profit sources.

http://www.stopvaw.org/ethnic_minorities2.html

Of course, the police like to beat up white people too.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases...

And some kids like beating up gay people.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases...

To be clear, I'm not saying every person is racist, or violent. But they've very serious tolerance issues, and questioning how the BBC phrased their question is taking offence where absolutely none should be taken, and skirts around the issue. Sounds like a bloody mucky place, all in.

Edited by iphonedyou on Thursday 7th June 11:14

it was laughable in the way that they showed footage of a very small crowd in a largely empty stadium making fascist salutes and appeared to portray it as representative of all football supporters in Ukraine. it was laughable like the old Donal MacIntyre Undercover programme about the Chelsea mob, yes, go looking for it and you will find it but its a minority and its now only away from the grounds. Sure tehre are flashpoints like the last Millwall vs West Ham game but that was nothing to do with racism. the idea of clubs having hooligan crews or outfits is nothing like it was even ten years ago. nowadays, they prefer to abuse each other on forums and the occasional ruck in motorway services car park.

In England, football crowds tend to be self policing to some extent, if there is one idiot spouting racist (or other unnecessary) abuse, it quickly gets dealt with and I have seen this a few times at various grounds. Racist abuse just doesnt happen at UK grounds with anything like the regularty you suspect. Possibly because we have regularly had black players in the footbal league for the last 30 years and we are used to it, but also becuase [patrotic whim} we are a brilliantly tolerant and multicultural country who respect talent and endeavour [/patriotic whim]. go to a football match, stand up and hurl racist abuse at a player and other fans will be on you far quicker than a steward....

if the grounds are full, there is no chance of any violence, if crowds can move around, trouble can arise. sadly there will be empty seats in Ukraine (more so than Poland) but i stil lthink any trouble will be in the town sqares and alcohol fuelled. one more reason why i like all seater stadia in the UK.

THe FCO statement is probably accurate and advisable but i still think the vast majority of Ukranians know their country is in the spotlight and will do there best to portray the county in a better light. There are still hundreds of issues in the UK that paint us in a bad light and need resolving before we can point fingers at kids beating up gays.

[Murcielago_Boy]

Can you believe peoples stupiditiy?!! Slavic Neo-Nazis!!! The bloody basis of Nazism was the enslavement/destruction of the Slavic peoples which were considered sub-human.
What next? "Africans for Slavery"?
Some people are so thick.

On a side note, I've had fairly limited experience of Eastern Europe so I'm definitely extrapolating and probably generalising. BUT, I'll stick my neck out and say that I believe the peoples of these countries to be amongst the most racist I've ever come across anywhere in the world, in all my travels. Whether this applies to 0.001% of the population or bloody 20% - I don't know...
What I do know is that I've never felt so vulnerable walking around the streets of a city like Prague than even bloody Bermondsey after an NF Rally in the early 90's!

[rohrl]

I'm fairly sure that Viktoria, the Ukrainian mathematician I know isn't a dangerous racist.

She's a fantastic pianist and does ballroom dancing and she has a stutter and rather odd, old-fashioned taste in clothes but I've never noticed any tendency to dangerous racism.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Murcielago_Boy said:

Can you believe peoples stupiditiy?!! Slavic Neo-Nazis!!! The bloody basis of Nazism was the enslavement/destruction of the Slavic peoples which were considered sub-human.
What next? "Africans for Slavery"?
Some people are so thick.

On a side note, I've had fairly limited experience of Eastern Europe so I'm definitely extrapolating and probably generalising. BUT, I'll stick my neck out and say that I believe the peoples of these countries to be amongst the most racist I've ever come across anywhere in the world, in all my travels. Whether this applies to 0.001% of the population or bloody 20% - I don't know...
What I do know is that I've never felt so vulnerable walking around the streets of a city like Prague than even bloody Bermondsey after an NF Rally in the early 90's!

Agreed. I've spent a fair bit of time in E. Europe and racism is endemic. And you're right about Slavic Neo Nazis. It does have a ring of "turkeys supporting Xmas" about it!

Ukraine was part of the USSR that lost 20m men in WW2. It's just mindboggling that Ukrainian Nazis even exist. Takes spupidity to a whole new level.

[Piersman2]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Agreed. I've spent a fair bit of time in E. Europe and racism is endemic. And you're right about Slavic Neo Nazis. It does have a ring of "turkeys supporting Xmas" about it!

Ukraine was part of the USSR that lost 20m men in WW2. It's just mindboggling that Ukrainian Nazis even exist. Takes spupidity to a whole new level.

Errr... a vast number of that 20M that died were members of the general population whose deaths were caused by Stalin's approach to war. Most of them starved.

However the underlying turkey sentiment is still true enough.

P.S.

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Takes spupidity to a whole new level.

Great word to pick to make a type in!

[vonuber]

Piersman2 said:

Errr... a vast number of that 20M that died were members of the general population whose deaths were caused by Stalin's approach to war. Most of them starved.

However the underlying turkey sentiment is still true enough.

Don't forget the 8m Ukrainians that were starved to death before WW2 by Stalin.

[PoleDriver]

Piersman2 said:

Great word to pick to make a type in!

Typo!

[anonymous-user]

vonuber said:

Never understood Neo-nazis in Eastern Europe. What are they going to do, exterminate themselves?

Agreed.

It's absolutely bonkers.

Hitler decimates Eastern Europe, kills millions, and now it's "Hitler for President".

My girlfriend is Polish and she is at a total and utter loss to explain it as well. The best she could come up with was "they must just be complete morons".

She does agree however that quite a lot of Eastern Europeans are 'rather racist'. I've met a lot of Eastern European guys through work, friends and travel who are thoroughly nice people and like a laugh and a chat about the same sort of things as any of us would, but a number of them wouldn't hesitate to refer to black people as 'Dirty n*****s' and feel that was completely acceptable, even in mixed company.

I was pretty shocked the first couple of times I heard language like that out of them. I thought I had perhaps fell through a worm hole and ended up in 1950's Alabama.

[Lost_BMW]

Legend83 said:

The 'Moroccan' chap interviewed looked a bit uncomfortable when denying that he had ever seen any evidence of racism...

I did also find the quote in question quite amusing. I can't imagine the BBC ever allowing the words "so, are all travellers dirty thieving scum?"

Yeah but there's no question on that one is there...

[Lost_BMW]

Legend83 said:

The 'Moroccan' chap interviewed looked a bit uncomfortable when denying that he had ever seen any evidence of racism...

I did also find the quote in question quite amusing. I can't imagine the BBC ever allowing the words "so, are all travellers dirty thieving scum?"

Yeah but there's no question on that one is there...

[anonymous-user]

NinjaPower said:

vonuber said:

Never understood Neo-nazis in Eastern Europe. What are they going to do, exterminate themselves?

Agreed.

It's absolutely bonkers.

Hitler decimates Eastern Europe, kills millions, and now it's "Hitler for President".

My girlfriend is Polish and she is at a total and utter loss to explain it as well. The best she could come up with was "they must just be complete morons".

She does agree however that quite a lot of Eastern Europeans are 'rather racist'. I've met a lot of Eastern European guys through work, friends and travel who are thoroughly nice people and like a laugh and a chat about the same sort of things as any of us would, but a number of them wouldn't hesitate to refer to black people as 'Dirty n*****s' and feel that was completely acceptable, even in mixed company.

I was pretty shocked the first couple of times I heard language like that out of them. I thought I had perhaps fell through a worm hole and ended up in 1950's Alabama.

Only its not "Hitler for President" really is it, I think a lot of Eastern Europeans are scared of Asian immigration in the "coming over here, taking our jobs" mentality which simply manifests itself into a display of right wing agendas, the same kind of "send 'em back where they came from" mentality that still exists here in the UK.

We understand Asian culture a lot better following generations of immigration (and possibly our Empirical past) but for places like Ukraine it must be a worry when their economy isnt that strong and propsects for the majority arent that high to have the fear of Asian immigration and a new ideology that they are unfamiliar with. In their ideal world, they would have a far right Government in power who would restrict immigration which would in turn protect their jobs and way of life. Its fear of teh unkown more than "Hitler for President"

[obob]

And it starts:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/mobile/football/18363...

Tournament has not even started yet and UEFA ate just brushing it under the carpet.

[PoleDriver]

Thank god it's only football, it would be worse if it affected something important!

[anonymous-user]

pablo said:

NinjaPower said:

vonuber said:

Never understood Neo-nazis in Eastern Europe. What are they going to do, exterminate themselves?

Agreed.

It's absolutely bonkers.

Hitler decimates Eastern Europe, kills millions, and now it's "Hitler for President".

My girlfriend is Polish and she is at a total and utter loss to explain it as well. The best she could come up with was "they must just be complete morons".

She does agree however that quite a lot of Eastern Europeans are 'rather racist'. I've met a lot of Eastern European guys through work, friends and travel who are thoroughly nice people and like a laugh and a chat about the same sort of things as any of us would, but a number of them wouldn't hesitate to refer to black people as 'Dirty n*****s' and feel that was completely acceptable, even in mixed company.

I was pretty shocked the first couple of times I heard language like that out of them. I thought I had perhaps fell through a worm hole and ended up in 1950's Alabama.

Only its not "Hitler for President" really is it, I think a lot of Eastern Europeans are scared of Asian immigration in the "coming over here, taking our jobs" mentality which simply manifests itself into a display of right wing agendas, the same kind of "send 'em back where they came from" mentality that still exists here in the UK.

We understand Asian culture a lot better following generations of immigration (and possibly our Empirical past) but for places like Ukraine it must be a worry when their economy isnt that strong and propsects for the majority arent that high to have the fear of Asian immigration and a new ideology that they are unfamiliar with. In their ideal world, they would have a far right Government in power who would restrict immigration which would in turn protect their jobs and way of life. Its fear of teh unkown more than "Hitler for President"

Yeah, I'll go with you on that one.

Agreed.

[llewop]

pablo said:

Only its not "Hitler for President" really is it, I think a lot of Eastern Europeans are scared of Asian immigration in the "coming over here, taking our jobs" mentality which simply manifests itself into a display of right wing agendas, the same kind of "send 'em back where they came from" mentality that still exists here in the UK.

We understand Asian culture a lot better following generations of immigration (and possibly our Empirical past) but for places like Ukraine it must be a worry when their economy isnt that strong and propsects for the majority arent that high to have the fear of Asian immigration and a new ideology that they are unfamiliar with. In their ideal world, they would have a far right Government in power who would restrict immigration which would in turn protect their jobs and way of life. Its fear of teh unkown more than "Hitler for President"

not just the ideology they are unfamiliar with - in some ways it is a simple as the fact they are not used to seeing anyone with skin other than white. In the town I'm in (population roughly 25k) there is probably no more than 25 that are non-white! and all/most of them are expatrites! For sure, a small minority will deal with this lack of familiarity or exposure in a negative way, but: far and away the vast majority of Ukrainians are lovely, friendly, helpful people - some may have a drink problem, many are more than a little tempted to dodgy dealings - but overall, amazingly friendly and welcoming.