Plastic bag campaign - one question

[martin84]

http://news.sky.com/story/967454/call-for-levy-to-...

I'm not usually interested in a futile campaign on a tiny issue from an organisation I've never heard of and usually I wouldn't dream of wasting PH'ers time with something so daft.

However much of the reasoning behind bag restrictions stems from how it supposedly gets in the sea and kills the fishes.

Now....how do I put this.....I don't throw my bags in the sea so why should I have to pay for it?

Do you throw your bags in the sea? Step forward everyone here who throws their carrier bags in the sea.

[Lost_BMW]

I am concerned when I hear reports (if true!) of how much plastic debris has got in to the sea/sea life/ food chain but...

... just got back from a couple of days in Wales. Went to a Sainsburys at 8.30am on Monday morning with no till staff working at all (is Wales now 3rd world?) so had to use the scanners etc. No problem - except there were no bags to put the shopping in as normal so, like a clown, I had to find and ask a member of staff who informed me I would need to buy one of the solid/long lasting bags at 10p - `cost didn't worry me but the inconvenience and stupidity of the system did.

But, I was even more staggered when buying the family tea at McDonalds - a bunch of stuff ordered at the Drive Thru and then I was asked did I want a bag? What, how the hell else was I supposed to carry it back without depositing stuff all over the car? So I had to pay extra for a paper bag, paper! Noticed on the read out it said "Welsh Assembly bag charge" or similar. Now that is OTT and taking the piss.

[BruceV8]

Lost_BMW said:

Welsh Assembly bag charge

For when you desperately want to raise your own taxes, but can't.

[martin84]

Lost_BMW said:

But, I was even more staggered when buying the family tea at McDonalds - a bunch of stuff ordered at the Drive Thru and then I was asked did I want a bag? What, how the hell else was I supposed to carry it back without depositing stuff all over the car? So I had to pay extra for a paper bag, paper! Noticed on the read out it said "Welsh Assembly bag charge" or similar. Now that is OTT and taking the piss.

See now that's just pathetic and another example of why Government shouldn't get involved in this sort of thing. We all used to use paper bags years ago before someone decided we should switch to plastic to save cutting down the trees, now they're encouraging to switch to paper again like the Americans use. Paper is biodegradable, there's no need for a charge to be on that. The point of the levy was to discourage plastic bag use, not just charge for every means of carrying multiple items with one hand. It's window tax for the 21st century.

There's laws around bags already, even in Wales they legally have to give you a free bag if you're buying fresh meat or prescriptions. I too am concerned at the reported tonnes of plastic which ends up in the sea but the fact is I don't put it in the sea, so I shouldn't have to pay for it. Somewhere after it leaving my house in a bin (paid for by council tax) it ends up in the sea, so somebody else has to put it there.

Maybe if when I order online from Sainsbury's they didn't use an entire bag just for one tub of margerine (yes, they do) then less bags would go to waste. Another reason to not charge is we're already advertising for the company by carrying their bag around anyway.

[deeps]

Lost_BMW said:

... a bunch of stuff ordered at the Drive Thru and then I was asked did I want a bag? What, how the hell else was I supposed to carry it back without depositing stuff all over the car?

Seems to be a compulsory question in most shops these days, I usually answer "no thanks, I'll just stuff it all in my pockets - yes of course I want a flipping bag" but most people don't seem to find sarcasm very funny haha.

[Ayahuasca]

martin84 said:

http://news.sky.com/story/967454/call-for-levy-to-...

I'm not usually interested in a futile campaign on a tiny issue from an organisation I've never heard of and usually I wouldn't dream of wasting PH'ers time with something so daft.

However much of the reasoning behind bag restrictions stems from how it supposedly gets in the sea and kills the fishes.

Now....how do I put this.....I don't throw my bags in the sea so why should I have to pay for it?

Do you throw your bags in the sea? Step forward everyone here who throws their carrier bags in the sea.

You drop you bit of plastic in the road, it rains and it gets washed into a storm drain. From there is is emptied into a river. The river finds its way to the sea. Most of the rubbish in the sea was dumped on land a long way from the sea.

[johnfm]

martin84 said:

http://news.sky.com/story/967454/call-for-levy-to-...

I'm not usually interested in a futile campaign on a tiny issue from an organisation I've never heard of and usually I wouldn't dream of wasting PH'ers time with something so daft.

However much of the reasoning behind bag restrictions stems from how it supposedly gets in the sea and kills the fishes.

Now....how do I put this.....I don't throw my bags in the sea so why should I have to pay for it?

Do you throw your bags in the sea? Step forward everyone here who throws their carrier bags in the sea.

I don't use the NHS or government schools. Nor do I invade other countries. Do I have to pay tax?*

• nb, this is a tongue in cheek comment intended to highlight the absurdity of your position.

[martin84]

It's not an absurd position at all. Comparing tax to fund universal healthcare is different to a penalising charge for something you don't cause. The charge is to stop the bag getting into the sea/countryside/etc and harming all the lovely fluffy/slippery animals. I don't throw it in the sea so therefore I don't cause the damage. So why should I pay for the damage?

If my neighbour sets fire to a playing field do I have to pay a field levy?

[greygoose]

martin84 said:

Now....how do I put this.....I don't throw my bags in the sea so why should I have to pay for it?

Do you throw your bags in the sea? Step forward everyone here who throws their carrier bags in the sea.

I agree with you, we use carrier bags as bin liners in the kitchen and don't throw them in hedges or the sea, there are perfectly good laws available to tackle littering and flytipping without resorting to a tax on everyone. If the litter throwing minority can't be dissuaded then why can't the supermarkets be persuaded togive out strong paper bags like US shops have which wouldn't harm the fish?

[martin84]

Ahhh if we use paper bags they'll complain we're cutting down too many trees. They want us to use magic ones.

I've got some of those hessian bags, they're brilliant but I do sometimes leave them in the car and forget to take them in the shop. The main culprit in my life is Sainsburys who use more bags than is required in their online shopping.

[johnfm]

martin84 said:

It's not an absurd position at all. Comparing tax to fund universal healthcare is different to a penalising charge for something you don't cause. The charge is to stop the bag getting into the sea/countryside/etc and harming all the lovely fluffy/slippery animals. I don't throw it in the sea so therefore I don't cause the damage. So why should I pay for the damage?

If my neighbour sets fire to a playing field do I have to pay a field levy?

How is 'I don't cause the cleanup cost you want me to contribute to' and different to

'I don't use the services you want me to contribute to'?

There is a stronger argument for a bag levy - in that at least you get a direct benefit of cleaner beaches/countryside, even though you don't contribute to the problem. There is a return for your levy.

I get NO benefit from the NHS curing OTHER people or educating other people's children at my expense - (save the long term, incalculable benefits of society being healthier and educated.)

[martin84]

johnfm said:

How is 'I don't cause the cleanup cost you want me to contribute to' and different to

'I don't use the services you want me to contribute to'?

There is a stronger argument for a bag levy - in that at least you get a direct benefit of cleaner beaches/countryside, even though you don't contribute to the problem. There is a return for your levy.

I get NO benefit from the NHS curing OTHER people or educating other people's children at my expense - (save the long term, incalculable benefits of society being healthier and educated.)

But what if this bag levy was to actually result in nobody using a bag. Aren't they just going to find another way of making a few quid? A levy on whatever we use instead? Trolley levy?

[johnfm]

FAOD, I am also against some arbitrary new tax - I just take a contrarian view to you reasoning.

[martin84]

johnfm said:

FAOD, I am also against some arbitrary new tax - I just take a contrarian view to you reasoning.

If I said there was no air on the moon you'd argue there was.

[Oakey]

you mean to say you don't spend an evening with the family flushing plastic carrier bags down the toilet?

[johnfm]

martin84 said:

johnfm said:

FAOD, I am also against some arbitrary new tax - I just take a contrarian view to you reasoning.

If I said there was no air on the moon you'd argue there was.

Do you mean 'on' the moon or an atmosphere surrounding the moon?

I digress. I think there should be e levy on campaign groups and ste press releases masquerading as news...

[martin84]

Oakey said:

you mean to say you don't spend an evening with the family flushing plastic carrier bags down the toilet?

Didn't have time this evening as I was too busy pouring brake fluid down the drain.

[SmoothCriminal]

Thing I dont get is how much of this so called sea of plastic is actually from the uk?

You only have to look at the east Asian countries to see how polluted and dirty their rivers/seas are.

It's just like the carbon tax whats the point when china is opening x amount of coal fired power stations a week and we contribute less than 2% of the worlds carbon output.

Taxes like these are like putting a kitchen colander over a burst water main. fking waste of time and it does my nut in when I have to be forced to buy a poxy plastic bag.

[davepoth]

martin84 said:

But what if this bag levy was to actually result in nobody using a bag. Aren't they just going to find another way of making a few quid? A levy on whatever we use instead? Trolley levy?

It's not a tax, the money doesn't go to the government.

http://www.carrierbagchargewales.gov.uk/retailers/...

Use of net proceeds

The Regulations do not specify where the proceeds of the charge should go. However, we do expect that the proceeds should be passed on to charities or good causes in Wales, and in particular to environmental projects. We are aware that some retailers have existing partnerships with good causes and we do not want to cut across these existing arrangements.

[Bibbs]

Plastic is better than paper.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/83366...

If the bags are reused in household bins they are actually better as they don't breakup before hitting landfill.
Paper bags deteriorate and then the contents get spilled before they can get covered, spreading the litter.