Virgin lose West Coast franchise to First Group

[Blue62]

People suggesting that this is all down to incompetence in the public procurement process maybe don't understand the wider context of this fiasco, which will cost all taxpayers a minimum of £40m at a time when that money could be more usefully spent elswhere. The bottom line is that the government changed the franchising process a few years ago to put the financial risk solely on the operator, where previously the risk was shared. I hate to say this, but when Milliband accused the coalition of incompetence yesterday he was spot on.

[ralphrj]

Blue62 said:

I hate to say this, but when Milliband accused the coalition of incompetence yesterday he was spot on.

I know that Ministers are ultimately responsible for the work of their departments but I don't think it is reasonable that a Minister can be expected to doublecheck the calculations produced by civil servants. If the civil servants have done their sums wrong but everyone up to and including the Permanent Secretary (the most senior civil servant in a government department) has repeatedly assured the Minister that they are correct what can the Minister do? It is a problem that would occur irrespective of the colour tie the Minister wears. This error highlights the problems within the civil service and I hope that the fact that people have been suspended pending an investigation suggests that finally someone will be held to account.

[Blue62]

Sorry, but I think what you are seeing is the government machine shifting blame onto the civil servants, the issue is not about maths but the fundamental basis on which the calculations are based, which was introduced by the coalition. Despite repeated pleas from Virgin and Labour to review the process, successive transport ministers gave the house of commons assurances that the bidding process was robust, just where does ministerial accountability begin and end?

[DJRC]

Blue62 said:

People suggesting that this is all down to incompetence in the public procurement process maybe don't understand the wider context of this fiasco, which will cost all taxpayers a minimum of £40m at a time when that money could be more usefully spent elswhere. The bottom line is that the government changed the franchising process a few years ago to put the financial risk solely on the operator, where previously the risk was shared. I hate to say this, but when Milliband accused the coalition of incompetence yesterday he was spot on.

Er... if "few" = more than 2 then does that not make it Labour's cock up?

Either way this is a Civil Service cock up for me. This is their job to crunch the numbers, take in the evidence and see who comes out with what. Ministers take the decision based on that analysis (or their own bias). We already cynically suspect/expect the Ministers to have their own bias either way, but we expect the Civil Service at least to do their analysis properly.

[anonymous-user]

Blue62 said:

People suggesting that this is all down to incompetence in the public procurement process maybe don't understand the wider context of this fiasco, which will cost all taxpayers a minimum of £40m at a time when that money could be more usefully spent elswhere. The bottom line is that the government changed the franchising process a few years ago to put the financial risk solely on the operator, where previously the risk was shared. I hate to say this, but when Milliband accused the coalition of incompetence yesterday he was spot on.

Patrick McLaughlin this morning said that whilst investigating the points brought up by Virgin they found far wider issues with the whole process that could even call into question franchises awarded by the last Government. He squarely blamed civil servants for developing and using a massively flawed 'model'.

Now I know that he would say the last bit but the fact that the issues were present years ago can hardly be laid at the door of the coalition.

It does seem that the civil servants are responsible, and should be held accountable for this fk up, at least equally with their inept, incompetent fkwits of ministerial bosses, of all colours.

In any event, it is far more than simply transferring a financial responsibility, as you say.

[hornetrider]

I can't believe how st this govt are turning out to be.

[chimster]

This is our money being pissed up the wall through incompetence of the highest order. Just sort the fking thing out. Governments and commercial decision making don't go together. Don't care who got it wrong but an example has to be made somewhere, somehow to try and stop these clusterfks continually recurring. Really really pisses me off.

[RedTrident]

Ooops. Looks like this government is going to carry on fking things up for themselves. At this rate Labour don't need to win the next election, the Tories seem capable of losing it all by themselves.

[DJRC]

The Houghton family breakfast table this morning:

Mrs Houghton: Shall we hold an Xmas party this yr darling?
Mr Houghton: Well you can take Justine fking Greening off the list for a start!
Mrs Houghton: Yes, she does seem to have made an auspicious move in Depts doesnt she? Do have fun at the cabinet meeting today.
Mr Houghton: Im going to bloody kill her!

[hornetrider]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I hear you, but I reserve the right to be massively disappointed.

[Eric Mc]

RedTrident said:

Ooops. Looks like this government is going to carry on fking things up for themselves. At this rate Labour don't need to win the next election, the Tories seem capable of losing it all by themselves.

Funny, but it seems that it is the government who are investigating this affair. Is that a sign of ineptitude or correct behaviour?

[Blue62]

Can't believe folk here are happy to see the blame pushed squarely onto the shoulders of the civil servants, sure they're at fault, but the whole process of awarding franchises is overly complex and expensive, a process which was designed by governments going back to the start of the privatisation. I am at the point of wondering if there's anything we can trust the government to run.

[turbobloke]

Eric Mc said:

RedTrident said:

Ooops. Looks like this government is going to carry on fking things up for themselves. At this rate Labour don't need to win the next election, the Tories seem capable of losing it all by themselves.

Funny, but it seems that it is the government who are investigating this affair. Is that a sign of ineptitude or correct behaviour?

Agreed, this is a minion-level snafu. Public sector procurement, maaarvellous.

[Blue62]

Eric Mc said:

Funny, but it seems that it is the government who are investigating this affair. Is that a sign of ineptitude or correct behaviour?

It's notable that this is a cock-up of such proportions that they didn't even play the judicial review card, just jumped to a full and frank admission, pulled the bid, blamed the civil service and announced that the taxpayer will foot the bill.

[RedTrident]

Eric Mc said:

RedTrident said:

Ooops. Looks like this government is going to carry on fking things up for themselves. At this rate Labour don't need to win the next election, the Tories seem capable of losing it all by themselves.

Funny, but it seems that it is the government who are investigating this affair. Is that a sign of ineptitude or correct behaviour?

Perhaps they should have investigated it prior to the bidding process and definitely before Virgin's threat of legal action.

In isolation it could indeed be argued that this is a cock up by civil servants. Unfortunately, this isn't the first time that we see ministers passing the responsibility in that direction. There's a pattern emerging with this government.

[RedTrident]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Acknowledge they are in charge and that they bear responsibility perhaps?

[anonymous-user]

DJRC said:

The Houghton family breakfast table this morning:

Mrs Houghton: Shall we hold an Xmas party this yr darling?
Mr Houghton: Well you can take Justine fking Greening off the list for a start!
Mrs Houghton: Yes, she does seem to have made an auspicious move in Depts doesnt she? Do have fun at the cabinet meeting today.
Mr Houghton: Im going to bloody kill her!

Houghton?

[ralphrj]

RedTrident said:

Acknowledge they are in charge and that they bear responsibility perhaps?

Hasn't the Minister done that by cancelling the franchise award and apologising? I don't think that the Minister is wrong to order an inquiry into how the error was made, who made it and, if necessary, to take appropriate action against them.

Or do you simply expect that, as Minister, McLoughlin should resign because of a mistake made by a civil servant before he was head of the department?

[Eric Mc]

McLoughlins can do no wrong

[DJRC]

RedTrident said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Acknowledge they are in charge and that they bear responsibility perhaps?

What you mean like the man who has been in the job for just 3 weeks fronting up, admitting his dept had made an almighty error, that no part of this was in any way anybody elses fault except his dept and they would be refunding everybody? That immediate investigations would start, some people were already on suspension pending those investigations and a full and frank admission of responsibility for the cock up.

What exactly extra did you want from the Minister? About the only thing he didnt do was go down on his knees and whip his back yelling "mea culpa mea culpa!"