Virgin lose West Coast franchise to First Group

[nc107]

Just a point, but the problem is not just the marking but the way in which the ITT was constructed, and that was done under Hammond, before Greening came along. I'm sure she will claim 'I inherited it' as well. Just sayin'....

[GarryA]

GarryA said:

Something fishy going on, I still stand by First Group running the infrastructure maintenance or Network Rail running the trains.

[V8mate]

GarryA said:

GarryA said:

Something fishy going on, I still stand by First Group running the infrastructure maintenance or Network Rail running the trains.

They couldn't organise the proverial piss up.

[Pesty]

Apparently they forgot to take account of inflation.

Really? really?

Did they forget or did they overlook it to get the preferred company to win, the one that offered the biggest brown envelope or directorship after the MP was done with parliament.

[davepoth]

Pesty said:

Apparently they forgot to take account of inflation.

Really? really?

Did they forget or did they overlook it to get the preferred company to win, the one that offered the biggest brown envelope or directorship after the MP was done with parliament.

Nothing to do with that I'm sure. Although I wonder whether anybody involved had a holiday home in the south-west. Upgrades to first class are expensive these days...

[Laurel Green]

Pesty said:

Apparently they forgot to take account of inflation.

Really? really?

Did they forget or did they overlook it to get the preferred company to win, the one that offered the biggest brown envelope or directorship after the MP was done with parliament.

I thought that I must have misheard when hearing that on ITV local news earlier.

Nothing, I repeat, nothing, can be that simple as an explanation.

[audidoody]

Eric Mc said:

Ministers tend to trust the information they get from their civil service advisers.

I keep thinking of Sir Humphrey and Jim Hacker.

In the normal course of events - yes. But on this occasion she had Branson's lawyers all over her telling her that they believed the decision made no sense and threatening judicial review. At which point she should have pressed her advisors for some answers before responding to the media and the various select committees.

[Sgt Bilko]

It's not like ministers have blamed the CS for other hot topic issues over the last 12 months have they. It's not like senior civil servants have been suspended and vilified by ministers then hung out to dry whilst those civil servants have been forbidden by their code of conduct against speaking out against the government or ministers . It's not like the gov have had to pay off the same CS to keep quiet after they've gone into bat against UK PLC.

Remember the initial headlines and who the Ministers were blaming?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

Lets see what comes out in the wash over the next few weeks....

[greygoose]

Very true, the concept of ministerial responsibility has been eroded over the years and the current lot are happy to blame anyone else rather than wait for proof or consider their own actions.

[W124Bob]

I,m not sure I believe the excuses,Branson has stamped his foot many times over the last decade to get what he wants,£28m compo for the West Coast upgrade delays,extra coaches for his fleet then franchises extensions because of the above,couple this with the insider First had at the DfT(Dr Mike Mitchell ex BRB ex First director,consultant at DfT until recently)there was also a desire by some to take on the unions. Virgin was seen by some at the DfT as a pain in the backside so taking the franchise away gets rid of Branson.I don,t think they expected the sort of reaction they got from Virgin it is indeed a complete horlicks,There are quite a number of staff who were on temp contracts which expire on franchise exchange day or close too who hoped to get extensions, thats not going to happen.The short term is some contractor and lawyers are going to probably make alot of money out of this when it moves to "run on a weekly basis" train company .We all know who will ultimately pay.

[GadgeS3C]

Apologies if this has already been posted but I loved Mr Crow's statement:

From BBC website: 'And Bob Crow, general secretary of the RMT transport union, said: "The whole sorry and expensive shambles of rail privatisation has been dragged into the spotlight and, instead of re-running this expensive circus, the West Coast route should be renationalised on a permanent basis."'

So the expensive circus clowns would be running the whole show...

[Blue62]

GadgeS3C said:

Apologies if this has already been posted but I loved Mr Crow's statement:

From BBC website: 'And Bob Crow, general secretary of the RMT transport union, said: "The whole sorry and expensive shambles of rail privatisation has been dragged into the spotlight and, instead of re-running this expensive circus, the West Coast route should be renationalised on a permanent basis."'

So the expensive circus clowns would be running the whole show...

This episode highlights the frailties of the leaving control in the hands of the DfT does it not? The East coast line has been effectively nationalised for some time now, while I would prefer to see a private/public partnership work, it's clear that rail is a massively complex business to run and your comment about clowns is pretty astonishing, given what is starting to unfold.

[maddog993]

greygoose said:

....the concept of ministerial responsibility has been eroded over the years and the current lot are happy to blame anyone else rather than wait for proof or consider their own actions.

Indeed, the historic convention of individual Ministerial responsibility for their department - which has always been a vital component of democratic parliamentary government- is all too readily forgotten. We have fallen a long way from the honourable days of the likes of Dugdale, Maudling and Carrington when Ministerial accountability was absolute and unquestioned.

[DJRC]

maddog993 said:

greygoose said:

....the concept of ministerial responsibility has been eroded over the years and the current lot are happy to blame anyone else rather than wait for proof or consider their own actions.

Indeed, the historic convention of individual Ministerial responsibility for their department - which has always been a vital component of democratic parliamentary government- is all too readily forgotten. We have fallen a long way from the honourable days of the likes of Dugdale, Maudling and Carrington when Ministerial accountability was absolute and unquestioned.

???

The chap has fronted up with regards to the short commings of his dept.

How the tuppeny fk is he not taking the heat for his dept, even though he is only the brand new chap? What ducking has he done???????? Justine Greening, hell yes, flame her all you want, but the current Minister I can only see doing the right things atm.

[Blue62]

DJRC said:

???

The chap has fronted up with regards to the short commings of his dept.

How the tuppeny fk is he not taking the heat for his dept, even though he is only the brand new chap? What ducking has he done???????? Justine Greening, hell yes, flame her all you want, but the current Minister I can only see doing the right things atm.

It would certainly be difficult to argue that he is culpable, but that is to ignore the way this is now starting to look as though it has been 'stage managed', Greening happens to be out of the country, a reshuffle and a completely new ministerial team at the DfT. I'm sure that more facts will emerge, but I wouldn't be so bold in your assertions just yet, it's a very shady situation.

[TallbutBuxomly]

audidoody said:

Eric Mc said:

Ministers tend to trust the information they get from their civil service advisers.

I keep thinking of Sir Humphrey and Jim Hacker.

In the normal course of events - yes. But on this occasion she had Branson's lawyers all over her telling her that they believed the decision made no sense and threatening judicial review. At which point she should have pressed her advisors for some answers before responding to the media and the various select committees.

This is why I keep saying I suspect she had her hands deep in fgw's pockets.

[hornet]

Is there any reason why the DfT model couldn't be open sourced? Not talking about the actual numbers, just getting many eyes on the method used. If the errors are as fundamental as they sound, they'd have been spotted very quickly had the process been open to scrutiny. Also, from reading the reports, it sounds like the whole thing was spreadsheet based? Is it just me who finds that terrifying? We're awarding multi-year, multi-billion pound deals on the basis of an Excel calculation?! If DfT can't work inflation into a speadsheet model, what else is government cocking up? One incorrect cell reference or lookup value could be shaping entire policy...

[DJRC]

Blue62 said:

DJRC said:

???

The chap has fronted up with regards to the short commings of his dept.

How the tuppeny fk is he not taking the heat for his dept, even though he is only the brand new chap? What ducking has he done???????? Justine Greening, hell yes, flame her all you want, but the current Minister I can only see doing the right things atm.

It would certainly be difficult to argue that he is culpable, but that is to ignore the way this is now starting to look as though it has been 'stage managed', Greening happens to be out of the country, a reshuffle and a completely new ministerial team at the DfT. I'm sure that more facts will emerge, but I wouldn't be so bold in your assertions just yet, it's a very shady situation.

What assertions? I asked how has the man not fronted up for the short-comings of his dept? I asked you what ducking of any responsibility he has done? I said flame Justine Greening all you want, hell I think raised Greening and her being persona non grata on here 2 pages before you did! Your initial posts were just hammering the current Minister.

Shady? Its not shady, its a fk up! Good grief, you think "shady" is something worse than a fk up????? The DfT have fked up. That means the collection of Civil Servants and Minister who run the place fked up. That happened under Greening's watch, but she has buggered off in time to escape the brwon stuff on the fan. The new guy has come in, 3 weeks into the job, the truth lands on his desk. Its not his fault. Its not his doing, but he has to take the hits from the Press, the Opposition, look the nobber and sort it out. So far, all Ive seen from this guy is that he is doing his job. No shirking, no lying, no ducking, just a "Yes, we were st, we will now investigate, we will refund everybody and we will present the results of 2 investigations."

I have no idea what else you want from the guy.

[maddog993]

DJRC said:

???

The chap has fronted up with regards to the short commings of his dept.

How the tuppeny fk is he not taking the heat for his dept, even though he is only the brand new chap? What ducking has he done???????? Justine Greening, hell yes, flame her all you want, but the current Minister I can only see doing the right things atm.

Look at the history of those examples used & why I've used them; Whilst unrealistically wistful & nostalgic, the original Parliamentary constitutional convention, epitomised by Dugdale in 1954 was that of a Minister taking full responsibility for the actions of the CS within his department and (publicly at least) covering for their actions . Progressively this convention has been dishonourably eroded in the frantic scrabble for ambition-fuelled Ministers desperate to save their own reputation and arses (most notably following the Scott Report). It is probably unfair to point the finger at a Minister whose tenure is barely established & evidently is largely personally blameless, nonetheless the fact remains McLoughlin was at the helm when this clusterfk broke.He was (unwisely) happy to reiterate the words of Greening with regard to the franchise and while the blame is publicly and loudly laid at the door of the CS, he is constitutionally accountable. Thirty years ago he would be gone.

Edited by maddog993 on Thursday 4th October 14:41

[AV12]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/tr...

Judging by the financial benefit of First's bid for the WCML, did they have one eye on HS2 in the franchise process?