Virgin lose West Coast franchise to First Group

[Blue62]

DJRC said:

What assertions? I asked how has the man not fronted up for the short-comings of his dept? I asked you what ducking of any responsibility he has done? I said flame Justine Greening all you want, hell I think raised Greening and her being persona non grata on here 2 pages before you did! Your initial posts were just hammering the current Minister.

Shady? Its not shady, its a fk up! Good grief, you think "shady" is something worse than a fk up????? The DfT have fked up. That means the collection of Civil Servants and Minister who run the place fked up. That happened under Greening's watch, but she has buggered off in time to escape the brwon stuff on the fan. The new guy has come in, 3 weeks into the job, the truth lands on his desk. Its not his fault. Its not his doing, but he has to take the hits from the Press, the Opposition, look the nobber and sort it out. So far, all Ive seen from this guy is that he is doing his job. No shirking, no lying, no ducking, just a "Yes, we were st, we will now investigate, we will refund everybody and we will present the results of 2 investigations."

I have no idea what else you want from the guy.

Not sure this is getting past your red mist, but my shady reference is to the fact that there is more to come out in terms of detail, for example it already appears that Greening was informed about all this over two months ago, in other words before the reshuffle, when the ministerial team at the DfT was completely overhauled. The Governments response suggests rather more than a f*ck up to use your terminology. I don't know why you keep asking what I expect or want from 'the guy', I assume your addressing a wider audience, but it would serve you to wait a while before telling us all exactly what's happened here, it's still early days and you could end up looking a right c*ck.

[GadgeS3C]

Blue62 said:

GadgeS3C said:

Apologies if this has already been posted but I loved Mr Crow's statement:

From BBC website: 'And Bob Crow, general secretary of the RMT transport union, said: "The whole sorry and expensive shambles of rail privatisation has been dragged into the spotlight and, instead of re-running this expensive circus, the West Coast route should be renationalised on a permanent basis."'

So the expensive circus clowns would be running the whole show...

This episode highlights the frailties of the leaving control in the hands of the DfT does it not? The East coast line has been effectively nationalised for some time now, while I would prefer to see a private/public partnership work, it's clear that rail is a massively complex business to run and your comment about clowns is pretty astonishing, given what is starting to unfold.

Not sure what you're saying there Blue62 - I was suggesting that the DfT have been rather clown-like in their management of this. Intrigued to see how it all pans out but if it was re-nationalised I struggle to see the government/civil service having the competence to run the WCML.

Edited by GadgeS3C on Thursday 4th October 15:43

[Eric Mc]

I hink Blue62 wanted McLoughlin to walk into his office on the first day of his new job and immediately fall on his sword.

Now, I know the McLoughlin clan are a very honourable bunch - but that is a bit too much to ask.

[Blue62]

Eric Mc said:

I hink Blue62 wanted McLoughlin to walk into his office on the first day of his new job and immediately fall on his sword.

Now, I know the McLoughlin clan are a very honourable bunch - but that is a bit too much to ask.

Not in the least, if you read through what I've posted I have repeatedly stated that it would be unreasonable to blame McLoughlin, you misintepreted a post of mine where I referred to him as the minister responsible, meaning he's the man in charge at the DfT, I did correct that point but you seem to have missed it.

Notwithstanding that, it is apparent that he is currently suggesting that West coast failure is a mechanical one and that the system itself is fit for purpose, so we're to believe that it's just a few dumb civil servants getting their maths wrong. The fact that we've now had 7 different state secretaries at the DfT in 6 years should ring a few alarm bells, I would argue that given the problems over the last few years the DfT is not fit to run the railways but at the moment Mr McLouglin doesn't agree.

[DJRC]

maddog993 said:

DJRC said:

???

The chap has fronted up with regards to the short commings of his dept.

How the tuppeny fk is he not taking the heat for his dept, even though he is only the brand new chap? What ducking has he done???????? Justine Greening, hell yes, flame her all you want, but the current Minister I can only see doing the right things atm.

Look at the history of those examples used & why I've used them; Whilst unrealistically wistful & nostalgic, the original Parliamentary constitutional convention, epitomised by Dugdale in 1954 was that of a Minister taking full responsibility for the actions of the CS within his department and (publicly at least) covering for their actions . Progressively this convention has been dishonourably eroded in the frantic scrabble for ambition-fuelled Ministers desperate to save their own reputation and arses (most notably following the Scott Report). It is probably unfair to point the finger at a Minister whose tenure is barely established & evidently is largely personally blameless, nonetheless the fact remains McLoughlin was at the helm when this clusterfk broke.He was (unwisely) happy to reiterate the words of Greening with regard to the franchise and while the blame is publicly and loudly laid at the door of the CS, he is constitutionally accountable. Thirty years ago he would be gone.

Edited by maddog993 on Thursday 4th October 14:41

No he wouldnt. He would have been told to fix it.

That has ever been thus in British politics. Ministers neither resign nor get sacked when just 3 weeks into their role for situations they have no control over there unless there are other exceptional circumstances when it is convenient to suddenly need to ditch them.

[FiF]

This looks more and more like they knew they'd screwed up, if Greening still in place then massive calls for her to go, so quickly reshuffled out of the way. New boy in, announcement fairly quickly so it looks like new broom sweeping clean, no need for resignation. Politicians' grubby paws appearing vaguely clean whilst bouncing all the flak in direction of Civil Service.

Now I'm speculating wildly and completely without evidence, but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised that the "serious mistakes" were as a result of civil servants manipulating the process to attempt to get the answer the politicians wanted.

[chimster]

FiF said:

This looks more and more like they knew they'd screwed up, if Greening still in place then massive calls for her to go, so quickly reshuffled out of the way. New boy in, announcement fairly quickly so it looks like new broom sweeping clean, no need for resignation. Politicians' grubby paws appearing vaguely clean whilst bouncing all the flak in direction of Civil Service.

Now I'm speculating wildly and completely without evidence, but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised that the "serious mistakes" were as a result of civil servants manipulating the process to attempt to get the answer the politicians wanted.

Sounds about right to me.

[Apache]

The Govt wanted First Group to win and told their civil servants to make it so, they bodged it, Branson sussed and made a noise which wasn't part of the plan.....I imagine

[blueg33]

I work on the private sector side of public infrastructure procurements.

In most cases the publioc sector...

Do not understand what they want
Do not understand what they have been offerred
Do not understrand their own marking systems
Do not understand their own legal documents
Do not care about cost to the tax payer or the bidders
Do not have reasonable expectations of what is possible.


This rail franchise cock up does not surprise me one bit

[V8mate]

blueg33 said:

I work on the private sector side of public infrastructure procurements.

In most cases the publioc sector...

Do not understand what they want
Do not understand what they have been offerred
Do not understrand their own marking systems
Do not understand their own legal documents
Do not care about cost to the tax payer or the bidders
Do not have reasonable expectations of what is possible.


This rail franchise cock up does not surprise me one bit

I work all over the place but am currently on the public sector side of public infrastructure procurements.

I agree.

[Mr Snap]

hornet said:

Is there any reason why the DfT model couldn't be open sourced? Not talking about the actual numbers, just getting many eyes on the method used. If the errors are as fundamental as they sound, they'd have been spotted very quickly had the process been open to scrutiny. Also, from reading the reports, it sounds like the whole thing was spreadsheet based? Is it just me who finds that terrifying? We're awarding multi-year, multi-billion pound deals on the basis of an Excel calculation?! If DfT can't work inflation into a speadsheet model, what else is government cocking up? One incorrect cell reference or lookup value could be shaping entire policy...

I'd guess that you're probably correct. The situation didn't show up until HMG, worried that Branson might do them over in court, gave the papers to some well paid lawyers to build a defence. The lawyers then took the whole process apart and quickly spotted the errors...

Wonder if it's why Bombardier trains got nicely reamed a few months ago...?

[skwdenyer]

Blue62 said:

This episode highlights the frailties of the leaving control in the hands of the DfT does it not? The East coast line has been effectively nationalised for some time now, while I would prefer to see a private/public partnership work, it's clear that rail is a massively complex business to run and your comment about clowns is pretty astonishing, given what is starting to unfold.

As Virgin will, I'm sure, tell you, it isn't massively complex, so long as you're honest, realistic and prudent. The East Coast line was screwed up because, frankly, some massively unattainable commitments were made, whilst the awards committee took no account of the likelihood - or otherwise - of the unattainable becoming attainable.

Virgin have made clear on each occasion that they've been out-bid that they didn't believe that the winning bid would be viable. They've been proved right each time.

I've got no particular axe to grind for/against Branson, but he seems pretty much on the right side of this argument.

[TallbutBuxomly]

skwdenyer said:

Blue62 said:

This episode highlights the frailties of the leaving control in the hands of the DfT does it not? The East coast line has been effectively nationalised for some time now, while I would prefer to see a private/public partnership work, it's clear that rail is a massively complex business to run and your comment about clowns is pretty astonishing, given what is starting to unfold.

As Virgin will, I'm sure, tell you, it isn't massively complex, so long as you're honest, realistic and prudent. The East Coast line was screwed up because, frankly, some massively unattainable commitments were made, whilst the awards committee took no account of the likelihood - or otherwise - of the unattainable becoming attainable.

Virgin have made clear on each occasion that they've been out-bid that they didn't believe that the winning bid would be viable. They've been proved right each time.

I've got no particular axe to grind for/against Branson, but he seems pretty much on the right side of this argument.

Not going to be a popular view round these parts. Its more fashionable and accepted to accuse branson/virgin of being a stampy footed child.

[AV12]

skwdenyer said:

Blue62 said:

This episode highlights the frailties of the leaving control in the hands of the DfT does it not? The East coast line has been effectively nationalised for some time now, while I would prefer to see a private/public partnership work, it's clear that rail is a massively complex business to run and your comment about clowns is pretty astonishing, given what is starting to unfold.

As Virgin will, I'm sure, tell you, it isn't massively complex, so long as you're honest, realistic and prudent. The East Coast line was screwed up because, frankly, some massively unattainable commitments were made, whilst the awards committee took no account of the likelihood - or otherwise - of the unattainable becoming attainable.

Virgin have made clear on each occasion that they've been out-bid that they didn't believe that the winning bid would be viable. They've been proved right each time.

I've got no particular axe to grind for/against Branson, but he seems pretty much on the right side of this argument.

I agree.

[Apache]

Mr Snap said:

hornet said:

Is there any reason why the DfT model couldn't be open sourced? Not talking about the actual numbers, just getting many eyes on the method used. If the errors are as fundamental as they sound, they'd have been spotted very quickly had the process been open to scrutiny. Also, from reading the reports, it sounds like the whole thing was spreadsheet based? Is it just me who finds that terrifying? We're awarding multi-year, multi-billion pound deals on the basis of an Excel calculation?! If DfT can't work inflation into a speadsheet model, what else is government cocking up? One incorrect cell reference or lookup value could be shaping entire policy...

I'd guess that you're probably correct. The situation didn't show up until HMG, worried that Branson might do them over in court, gave the papers to some well paid lawyers to build a defence. The lawyers then took the whole process apart and quickly spotted the errors...

Wonder if it's why Bombardier trains got nicely reamed a few months ago...?

Nope

[blueg33]

Mr Snap said:

hornet said:

Is there any reason why the DfT model couldn't be open sourced? Not talking about the actual numbers, just getting many eyes on the method used. If the errors are as fundamental as they sound, they'd have been spotted very quickly had the process been open to scrutiny. Also, from reading the reports, it sounds like the whole thing was spreadsheet based? Is it just me who finds that terrifying? We're awarding multi-year, multi-billion pound deals on the basis of an Excel calculation?! If DfT can't work inflation into a speadsheet model, what else is government cocking up? One incorrect cell reference or lookup value could be shaping entire policy...

I'd guess that you're probably correct. The situation didn't show up until HMG, worried that Branson might do them over in court, gave the papers to some well paid lawyers to build a defence. The lawyers then took the whole process apart and quickly spotted the errors...

Wonder if it's why Bombardier trains got nicely reamed a few months ago...?

Lawyers will be involved from day 1, all large public procurements are like that. The problem is that a lawyer is often only as good as the brief he has been given, if the client doesn't understand what he wants, or the process etc then it gets stuffed up. Financial modellers will certainly have been employed by the biders and the public sector would usually have those too. But again, if the client does not understand what he wants then cock ups will happen

Edited by blueg33 on Friday 5th October 15:59

[Serendipity72]

blueg33 said:

I work on the private sector side of public infrastructure procurements.

In most cases the publioc sector...

Do not understand what they want
Do not understand what they have been offerred
Do not understrand their own marking systems
Do not understand their own legal documents
Do not care about cost to the tax payer or the bidders
Do not have reasonable expectations of what is possible.


This rail franchise cock up does not surprise me one bit

Which is just a small number of the myriad reasons why the less government we have the better. Everything they do they do badly.

[Sgt Bilko]

Sgt Bilko said:

It's not like ministers have blamed the CS for other hot topic issues over the last 12 months have they. It's not like senior civil servants have been suspended and vilified by ministers then hung out to dry whilst those civil servants have been forbidden by their code of conduct against speaking out against the government or ministers . It's not like the gov have had to pay off the same CS to keep quiet after they've gone into bat against UK PLC.

Remember the initial headlines and who the Ministers were blaming?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration...

Lets see what comes out in the wash over the next few weeks....

Here we go....

West Coast Main Line: Civil servant Kate Mingay speaks out
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19854459

[Laurel Green]

Sgt Bilko said:

Here we go....

West Coast Main Line: Civil servant Kate Mingay speaks out
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19854459

I can't say this surprises me TBH. What will surprise me, is if the truth is ever known.

[Slaav]

Laurel Green said:

Sgt Bilko said:

Here we go....

West Coast Main Line: Civil servant Kate Mingay speaks out
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19854459

I can't say this surprises me TBH. What will surprise me, is if the truth is ever known.

This line makes my skin crawl:

"I would like to make it clear that I did not have lead responsibility for this project."

Whether it is actually true or not, to make that statement boils my blood It implies that she was involved heavily in teh process but is simply putting her best teflon jacket on! ARRRGGGGHHHHHHHH