another abuse gang
Discussion
To help Transmat understand the back ground to this thread and the other thread that was closed I can perhaps explain as follows.
The closed thread started out as a question: How did these gangs get away with it for so long? It did NOT start out as a "the only paedos in the UK are Pakistani Muslim Males" but it did pose questions as to how it could be that so many men ( forget the official stats and read some of the victim statements if you want to get a handle on the likely numbers involved- but prepare to be sickened and appalled) could be involved, for so long, and nothing be done. Of course, it degenerated into lots of attacks from those who simply refuse to accept that not only is it possile that culture and religion played some part in the circle of abuse, but it also may possibly have played a part in the silence that surrounded the gangs, thereby allowing the abuse to go on for so long. ( as per the thread question)
Other factors also clearly play their part... Night time economy, vulnerable girls etc,
For the record, nobody said that paedophiles were uniquely asian, or muslim or both. Nobody denied there were problems elsewhere in society ( the catholic church was debated at various points too). What many people wanted to understand was how it could be that in the specific category of paedophilia that has been described here by Jshell and others...namely the mass rape, torture, branding, selling on, transportaton for sex etc, that the Pakistani Muslim community was significantly disproportionately represented in the offender group when compared to relative size of the community overall. THATS what caused the rows and the repeated racist slurs flung at me and a number of others.
There were debates about why the public services failed the kids ( fear of being branded racist was the best we could come up with) and debates on what constituted race, ( and thus racism) as opposed to culture or religion.
What closed that thread was a certain individual who decided that the victims deserved it cos their parents had abandoned them. Essentially it was all whiteys fault. I will let you guess which ethnic group he comes from.
This thread was started by me, so I do know what its intention was. It was to try to understand the mindset of blokes in paedo gangs. Not necessarily just Asian ones. Indeed in my first post I think I made it clear that I wanted to stay away from race and stick to the psychology. I dont understand the individual Paedo, but the whole gangs of 10,20, 30+ blokes freely sharing 12 year old girls without thought of being caught or informed on thing simply frys my brain to a crisp.
Hope that helps
The closed thread started out as a question: How did these gangs get away with it for so long? It did NOT start out as a "the only paedos in the UK are Pakistani Muslim Males" but it did pose questions as to how it could be that so many men ( forget the official stats and read some of the victim statements if you want to get a handle on the likely numbers involved- but prepare to be sickened and appalled) could be involved, for so long, and nothing be done. Of course, it degenerated into lots of attacks from those who simply refuse to accept that not only is it possile that culture and religion played some part in the circle of abuse, but it also may possibly have played a part in the silence that surrounded the gangs, thereby allowing the abuse to go on for so long. ( as per the thread question)
Other factors also clearly play their part... Night time economy, vulnerable girls etc,
For the record, nobody said that paedophiles were uniquely asian, or muslim or both. Nobody denied there were problems elsewhere in society ( the catholic church was debated at various points too). What many people wanted to understand was how it could be that in the specific category of paedophilia that has been described here by Jshell and others...namely the mass rape, torture, branding, selling on, transportaton for sex etc, that the Pakistani Muslim community was significantly disproportionately represented in the offender group when compared to relative size of the community overall. THATS what caused the rows and the repeated racist slurs flung at me and a number of others.
There were debates about why the public services failed the kids ( fear of being branded racist was the best we could come up with) and debates on what constituted race, ( and thus racism) as opposed to culture or religion.
What closed that thread was a certain individual who decided that the victims deserved it cos their parents had abandoned them. Essentially it was all whiteys fault. I will let you guess which ethnic group he comes from.
This thread was started by me, so I do know what its intention was. It was to try to understand the mindset of blokes in paedo gangs. Not necessarily just Asian ones. Indeed in my first post I think I made it clear that I wanted to stay away from race and stick to the psychology. I dont understand the individual Paedo, but the whole gangs of 10,20, 30+ blokes freely sharing 12 year old girls without thought of being caught or informed on thing simply frys my brain to a crisp.
Hope that helps
iphonedyou said:
Agreed. Andy's treatment on that thread was horrific. But believe me, while a few regular posters may have denigrated you- it's easy and cool to do so - many of us agreed with you.
Well, those determined to brand with the R word have today stepped things up a fair bit. I was called on my mobile just after 8.00am by an individual who refused to give his name, but who wanted to tell me I was a racist who spent all my time on Pistonheads attacking Muslims. He threatened to tell the Police and tell anybody involved in with my business that they were dealing with a dangerous racist ( his words) So, 07500 705869 I just want you to know that your little abusive call will have cost you more than you imagined - I am on holiday in Italy!
el stovey said:
McWigglebum4th said:
andymadmak said:
So, 07500 705869 I just want you to know that your little abusive call will have cost you more than you imagined - I am on holiday in Italy!
I hate to break this to youBut
You pay to recieve calls when out of the country
Sorry been off line. Dont worry about my little stalker. He does not worry me! He probably got my number from my profile which links through to an old business of mine.
The point is, I am sure he thought he was saying something I should be worried by, but he just sounded silly.
It is certainly someone from one of these threads, he mentioned PH specifically.
And yes, he was silly enough to allow his number to be seen!
Come out, come out, whoever you are!
The point is, I am sure he thought he was saying something I should be worried by, but he just sounded silly.
It is certainly someone from one of these threads, he mentioned PH specifically.
And yes, he was silly enough to allow his number to be seen!
Come out, come out, whoever you are!
I have been on PH for a fair old while now, and I have seen/participated in several threads over the years on this subject. When I started this thread I genuinely did not know what the ethnicity of the perpetrators was, and I specifically said that rather than focus on ethnicity or religion I wanted instead to understand how a group of people (men) develop a mindset that means they actually get together to do this kind of thing.
I took that route specifically because (aside from genuinely wanting to understand the phenomenon) I had seen so many threads descend into abuse as soon as the ethnicity and religious backgrounds of the accused became known.
Given that PH is probably a bit more right wing than most other fora, it still stuns me just how quickly the R bomb is dropped on anyone who dares to suggest that community values, religion and ethnicity might be playing some role in these crimes. I speak as someone who has received abusive phone calls and threats from other PHers simply for suggesting that these factors must be considered as part of the whole mix if society is to get to grips with the problem and thus protect its most vulnerable members.
I was called a dangerous racist, a bigot and threats were made against my job and my family. I believe that the person responsible is still a regular poster on PH.
Now my point is that if that can happen on PH, just imagine what pressures were put on Police, Social Workers etc in these communities to keep things hushed up. Imagine too the fear that the women in these communities must live under - they dare not speak out to defend others, and almost certainly they probably cannot even speak out to defend themselves and their own children from these monsters. And yet, for all that, I do hold the Police and social workers responsible. They HAD to do the right thing and they failed, over many years, and failed in that time THOUSANDS of victims.. (and those are just the ones we know about!) And I do blame the community for not speaking out more. It is simply NOT credible to suggest that some people did not know. Perhaps those that did speak out were subsequently silenced by the Police and the wider community?
What we do know is that there is a massive problem, and just like with the Catholic abuses and the celebrity abuses there is a pattern that needs to be broken in these groups.
I took that route specifically because (aside from genuinely wanting to understand the phenomenon) I had seen so many threads descend into abuse as soon as the ethnicity and religious backgrounds of the accused became known.
Given that PH is probably a bit more right wing than most other fora, it still stuns me just how quickly the R bomb is dropped on anyone who dares to suggest that community values, religion and ethnicity might be playing some role in these crimes. I speak as someone who has received abusive phone calls and threats from other PHers simply for suggesting that these factors must be considered as part of the whole mix if society is to get to grips with the problem and thus protect its most vulnerable members.
I was called a dangerous racist, a bigot and threats were made against my job and my family. I believe that the person responsible is still a regular poster on PH.
Now my point is that if that can happen on PH, just imagine what pressures were put on Police, Social Workers etc in these communities to keep things hushed up. Imagine too the fear that the women in these communities must live under - they dare not speak out to defend others, and almost certainly they probably cannot even speak out to defend themselves and their own children from these monsters. And yet, for all that, I do hold the Police and social workers responsible. They HAD to do the right thing and they failed, over many years, and failed in that time THOUSANDS of victims.. (and those are just the ones we know about!) And I do blame the community for not speaking out more. It is simply NOT credible to suggest that some people did not know. Perhaps those that did speak out were subsequently silenced by the Police and the wider community?
What we do know is that there is a massive problem, and just like with the Catholic abuses and the celebrity abuses there is a pattern that needs to be broken in these groups.
magnum555 said:
Nom de ploom said:
These gangs prey on vulnerabilities of young teenage girls.
Exactly if these teenagers where black or asian it would be the same for these animals, they dont care about colour. This is why I'm saying why are these white girls so vulnerable, what is making them vulnerable and when will the white English communities tackle these issues that makes these children vulnerable?But, your thinking seems to suggest that these girls were there for the taking and that as such this in some way absolves the perpetrators for their crimes.. That is just plain wrong. Frankly, even if these girls had been pegged out, spread eagled and naked in their front gardens by their parents it would STILL not be any justification, excuse or explanation for them being gang raped by these men from the Pakistani community. Do you not see that? The first wrong by the parents does not excuse the second wrong by the rapists!
And keep in mind that two thirds of the victims were not previously known to social services, and were not classed as coming from problem families. That's two thirds. Think about that. That would possibly suggest that the girls WERE targeted... and not because they were from problem white families and thus vulnerable per se, but because maybe, just maybe because they were white. (Other explanations are available, but most lack credibility imho)
Now, to come to your point about why the whole Pakistani community should share some culpability in this situation. This is tricky, because on one level I completely agree with you that it really is not fair to blame a whole community for the actions of a few members therein. But consider this... how do 1400 (at least as far as we know so far) girls get abused within a reasonably small community and no one apparently knew about it? Come on, just think about that? At least one thousand four hundred under age, mostly white girls raped and abused within one town within one small community in that town and nobody in the community knew? Really? It's not credible is it?
So some people knew. No all, that's for sure, and some of those that knew probably did speak out, but many (most?) did not. Why is that? On what planet does a community decide to turn a blind eye on the abuse that was taking place in its midst on the scale that it was happening? Keep in mind that only five, yes, that's five men have been charged and sent to prison for this. Why have all the others not been "shopped" by their families and friends? Has the community closed ranks perhaps?
I suspect that many were silenced by fear (as per my earlier post) and certainly there is evidence that asian women were actively discouraged from speaking out by their men folk and by other Pakistani women desperate to keep a lid on things. So fear, and the close knit nature of the community, coupled with the abject failure of the various authorities kept this problem under wraps for more than a decade. But there has to be more to it even than that...
The sad fact is that you and I know that some will have said, "well, it's just cheap white trash girls, and they don't really count. As long as it keeps cousin Ali off my daughter I don't care". With that in mind, are you seriously saying that the community has absolutely no case to answer?
magnum555 said:
I never said what the abusers did was right far from it what i am saying is what happened to these girls needs to be looked at entirely instead of point fingers and singling out one community. All communities need to look at issues within and address them this includes the white english communities.
So its a small community and that means everyone should know what everyone ones is up to? Like i said previously this is not Eastenders or Coronation street. In the 2011 census there were 8000 people with Pakistani or Kashmiri ethnicity. Now you tell me how can one person know what the rest of the 7999 fellow community members are doing? Its impossible. So why continue this attack on the community as a whole its completely flawed and unreasonable.
6 degrees of separation. Google it So its a small community and that means everyone should know what everyone ones is up to? Like i said previously this is not Eastenders or Coronation street. In the 2011 census there were 8000 people with Pakistani or Kashmiri ethnicity. Now you tell me how can one person know what the rest of the 7999 fellow community members are doing? Its impossible. So why continue this attack on the community as a whole its completely flawed and unreasonable.
1400 girls (at least) brought into and abused in a community of just 8000, over a period of more than 10 years.. and you are suggesting that only the 5 convicted to date knew anything? Just face it. Lots more people knew.. not everyone, thats for sure, but lots more than have come forward. Why is that?
Guam said:
andymadmak said:
I have been on PH for a fair old while now, and I have seen/participated in several threads over the years on this subject. When I started this thread I genuinely did not know what the ethnicity of the perpetrators was, and I specifically said that rather than focus on ethnicity or religion I wanted instead to understand how a group of people (men) develop a mindset that means they actually get together to do this kind of thing.
I took that route specifically because (aside from genuinely wanting to understand the phenomenon) I had seen so many threads descend into abuse as soon as the ethnicity and religious backgrounds of the accused became known.
Given that PH is probably a bit more right wing than most other fora, it still stuns me just how quickly the R bomb is dropped on anyone who dares to suggest that community values, religion and ethnicity might be playing some role in these crimes. I speak as someone who has received abusive phone calls and threats from other PHers simply for suggesting that these factors must be considered as part of the whole mix if society is to get to grips with the problem and thus protect its most vulnerable members.
I was called a dangerous racist, a bigot and threats were made against my job and my family. I believe that the person responsible is still a regular poster on PH.
Now my point is that if that can happen on PH, just imagine what pressures were put on Police, Social Workers etc in these communities to keep things hushed up. Imagine too the fear that the women in these communities must live under - they dare not speak out to defend others, and almost certainly they probably cannot even speak out to defend themselves and their own children from these monsters. And yet, for all that, I do hold the Police and social workers responsible. They HAD to do the right thing and they failed, over many years, and failed in that time THOUSANDS of victims.. (and those are just the ones we know about!) And I do blame the community for not speaking out more. It is simply NOT credible to suggest that some people did not know. Perhaps those that did speak out were subsequently silenced by the Police and the wider community?
What we do know is that there is a massive problem, and just like with the Catholic abuses and the celebrity abuses there is a pattern that needs to be broken in these groups.
Did you take the matter up with PH towers, similar happened to another member (for different reasons) and I believe that may have been dealt with appropriately, I would not stand for being harassed off board if I were you and would take it up with the "management".I took that route specifically because (aside from genuinely wanting to understand the phenomenon) I had seen so many threads descend into abuse as soon as the ethnicity and religious backgrounds of the accused became known.
Given that PH is probably a bit more right wing than most other fora, it still stuns me just how quickly the R bomb is dropped on anyone who dares to suggest that community values, religion and ethnicity might be playing some role in these crimes. I speak as someone who has received abusive phone calls and threats from other PHers simply for suggesting that these factors must be considered as part of the whole mix if society is to get to grips with the problem and thus protect its most vulnerable members.
I was called a dangerous racist, a bigot and threats were made against my job and my family. I believe that the person responsible is still a regular poster on PH.
Now my point is that if that can happen on PH, just imagine what pressures were put on Police, Social Workers etc in these communities to keep things hushed up. Imagine too the fear that the women in these communities must live under - they dare not speak out to defend others, and almost certainly they probably cannot even speak out to defend themselves and their own children from these monsters. And yet, for all that, I do hold the Police and social workers responsible. They HAD to do the right thing and they failed, over many years, and failed in that time THOUSANDS of victims.. (and those are just the ones we know about!) And I do blame the community for not speaking out more. It is simply NOT credible to suggest that some people did not know. Perhaps those that did speak out were subsequently silenced by the Police and the wider community?
What we do know is that there is a massive problem, and just like with the Catholic abuses and the celebrity abuses there is a pattern that needs to be broken in these groups.
Sorry to hear that some sad f
k has to hunt down your number and make threats due to your opinions.I did not take it up with the great and the good at PH Towers.. It seemed to me that it would be a hard thing to prove for them to take action. So what I did was to post the telephone number of my most abusive friend on a PH thread..(yes, my primary abuser was too stupid to conceal his mobile number!)
It is amazing just how much info the PH massive can provide from the smallest of clues...... The threats stopped... magnum555 said:
More assumptions and baseless accusations, its impossible to know what everyone is up to, do you know what your community gets up to?
(my bold) Within reason, yes I do. Of course, not the minutiae of everyones daily life, I don't know what my neighbour had for breakfast for example, but the general stuff is known. Sometimes we get a bit of juicy gossip about Fred sleeping with Betty, or someone caught drink driving or such like. School gate gossip, church step gossip, corner shop gossip. Lots of stuff is known by the community. I think abusing 1400 girls in a community of 8000 or less (your own number) would be "on radar" enough for a fair few people to be aware. Wives talk, blokes talk Stuff spread like wildfire. Of course there are loners, but they are the exception rather than the rule. The big difference is that if there were rumours going around that things like child abuse were going on I cannot think of anyone in my community who would not be filing a report with the Police or social workers pronto. Moreover, if I thought any of my family were actually involved I would tackle them about it, and then report them if appropriate so to do. alfabadass said:
Thats a double standard there.
The entire Pakistani community are responsible for the offenders though aint they?
I'm not from up north so can't speak for whats gone up there but I had no idea this st was going down.
Why should I be responsible for those fkers?
Same reason...why should the white community be responsible for Jimmy Saville and the top level peado rings in government?
You can't hold entire populations to account for this. It's ridiculous.
I don't think anyone is holding entire populations to account for this. I absolutely agree with you that it would be entirely wrong for anyone to do that. The entire Pakistani community are responsible for the offenders though aint they?
I'm not from up north so can't speak for whats gone up there but I had no idea this s
t was going down.Why should I be responsible for those f
kers?Same reason...why should the white community be responsible for Jimmy Saville and the top level peado rings in government?
You can't hold entire populations to account for this. It's ridiculous.
I think the point being made is that the abuse was so large scale, in what is quite a small community in a smallish, well defined area, that it is simply not credible to assume that ONLY the perpetrators themselves knew what was going on. Only 5 jailed have been so far in respect of crimes relating to more than 1400 girls, lasting more than 10 years. On that scale, over that time, do you not think it reasonable to assume that a significant % of the community would either be aware, or at least have heard the persistent rumours?
magnum555 said:
Maybe the police, social services and the Pakistani men were all together in some big plot to abuse white girls?
Well, it's a theory, and the facts as we know them could lend themselves to it. But equally, it could just be the case that the Police and Social services were so poo scared of being branded racist or being seen to upset "community cohesion" that they just decided to sacrifice the girls to their fates. Make no mistake, in my view the Police and Social services are as culpable here as much as any of the abusers. A total abdication of their duties just so they could save their salaries and pensions. Appalling on every level.
In terms of the failure of the authorities I'd widen the net even further and say "just how did we get into a situation like this where groups charged with the protection of the vulnerable are cowed into inaction?" The blame for this HAS to lie with the political left in this country. For decades, any attempt to question the policies of uncontrolled immigration, multi culturalism and the failure to integrate and unite different communities around shared core values would instantly lead to the individual being branded RACIST.
And to have the R card laid at your feet when you work in the public sector is to have the kiss of death planted firmly on your career. The left made it impossible for the authorities to deal with this issue, and it's no surprise to see Labour councillors and Labour Police Commissioners running for hills rather than face their responsibilities.
It is the left that created this whole toxic mess and made it so impossible to talk about as to ensure that the cries of the victims were ignored.
magnum555 said:
Again more finger pointing, you agree these girls are vulnerable but can you not see that the white english communities need to look into the vulnerability of these white girls?
I absolutely agree with you that all communities, and not just white english ones, need to look into the vulnerability of the young girls in their midsts. magnum555 said:
Perpetrators of these crimes are white brown and black but the reason why these girls are vulnerable to these abusers never gets raised and this is the issue.
I can't agree with you that this is THE issue. It's an issue and it needs to be dealt with, but the vulnerability of the victim does not in any way excuse the crimes committed against them by the perpetrators magnum555 said:
How can anything be done about this if we are continually accusing and making general assumptions about one community.
Because, as has been explained to you several times, as well as looking at the victims, we also need to look at those actually committing the crimes (we also need to look at the authorities tasked with protecting the vulnerable, but that's a different point) Your abject failure to recognise that there is a problem with some Pakistani males and the structures/values of the communities in which they live that in some way serves to protect the criminals is deplorable.
The Catholic church is another great example of what happens when abusers are protected by the structures around them. Do you blame the kids parents for handing them over to priests for sunday school and choir practice? Or shall we blame the kids for looking so damn sexy in those altar boy robes. Or maybe, just maybe we should blame the priests that did the crimes and the church organisation that helped to cover it up. See what I mean now?
blindswelledrat said:
Its just we love to get angrier about muslims doing it on here don't we?
Not really. This thread was originally about what motivates groups of men to gang rape 12 year old girls. I should know what the thread was about since I started it!It's evolved into a discussion about the the ethnic make up of these gangs.
Anyone who read the Savile thread would know that people are equally outraged by the actions of white celeb paedos. Anyone involved in the Catholic scandal thread would know that people are equally outraged by the actions of paedo priests and of the church organisations that covered up their activities.
People do tend to get a bit vexed though when the issues of ethnicity, culture, religion etc which clearly play some role in THIS PARTICULAR type of child abuse are instantly deemed to be off limits to the discussion, and those seeking to explore those issues are branded as racist.
Face it, there is a problem involving some elements of the Pakistani community. Understanding that and addressing the issues will help to save many more victims from being forced to learn Urdu just so that they can understand what is being said to them whilst they are being gang raped
TTwiggy said:
andymadmak said:
Not really. This thread was originally about what motivates groups of men to gang rape 12 year old girls. I should know what the thread was about since I started it!
And yet, when I tried to suggest that in the wider scheme of things this is a male problem, and that we, as men, should try to understand why it happens, I was accused of being a PC apologist playing the race card.I'd only add that there is of course a line of thought espoused by the most militant of feminists that ALL men are potential rapists...... So if that is to be accepted, (which I don't actually, but for the purposes of debate let's consider it) we need to understand what the trigger points are that turns that latent tendency into an actual act. Clearly different people have different trigger points. But sometimes you can identify a set of circumstances, a pattern if you like, that repeats across a number of individuals. The Catholic priest example is a good one.. A group of men, forced into celibacy from a young age, presented not only with multiple opportunities but also afforded the defences of their position in the communities they served and the efforts of the organisation they were a part of to cover up their actions. This toxic combo meant that a disproportionately high number of priests became rapists.
So what is it in these Pakistani communities that creates their particular toxic mix, their trigger point?
magnum555 said:
Blame is being put on Pakistani culture, but ask yourself why the majority of the vulnerable girls are white? Is there an a problem within white english culture?
I note you put a large smiley on this post - appropriate? Anyways, please can you explain why you think your question is even relevant to this debate? If you are not seeking to deflect blame from the perpetrators of these crimes then why is it even relevant to mention the causes of the vulnerability of the girls?
Surely you would have to accept that a normal bloke does not rape a 12 year old just because he thinks she's a bit vulnerable? Or have I got that wrong? Do you and your mates look at a vulnerable 12 year old and think "hey, she's a bit needy so lets all have a go? " Please do enlighten me as to your thought processes.
Also, can you explain how these gangs could be under the community radar, yet be well enough organised and in contact with each other to be able to traffic the girls from city to city to meet up with other Pakistani males across the UK to play swapsies with their respective sex toys? (sex toys = the children in case you misunderstand)
blindswelledrat said:
Im not siding here, but you cant have it both ways.
Either
a) You feel it is essential to single it out as a Pakistani problem as you need to pigeon hole it so you can address the root causes of this. THis being the case the reason the victims are so susceptible to it is equally relevant
nope that does not follow. The victims vulnerability (or otherwise) is entirely irrelevant to why the group feels the need to take advantage of them! Either
a) You feel it is essential to single it out as a Pakistani problem as you need to pigeon hole it so you can address the root causes of this. THis being the case the reason the victims are so susceptible to it is equally relevant
blindswelledrat said:
or
b) 'They are evil bds end of' thus their race is irrelevant.
Nope, Pakistanis are not all evil bb) 'They are evil b
ds end of' thus their race is irrelevant.ds. BUT, a disproportionately high number of Pakistani males are involved in this kind of activity. The reasons for this must be explored, but to do that means that people like Magnum have to accept that such exploration is justified. He cannot bring himself to do this. Instead he keeps running back to a thinly veiled "it's all the victims fault and the fault of their parents" mantra. Digga said:
pparently so, and the poor sods are, if anything, even less likely to find sympathy with their family/carers than the white girls.
II really do begin to wonder, who would most of these individuals vote for and how might that be part of the source of this?
I think you already know the answers to those questions. We all do. Given that it's the same mob that consistently buggers up the public finances when they are in power and who seem to think that the way to make poor people rich is to make rich people poor, it amazes me that ANYONE votes for them. II really do begin to wonder, who would most of these individuals vote for and how might that be part of the source of this?
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