another abuse gang
Discussion
Digga said:
otally.
The irony of the Asian gang abuse cases being previously 'under the radar' but now firmly within the sights of the authorities is not only that offenders within that demographic may change their MO to attempt to avoid detection, but also that it can divert attention from other types of abuse, even if only temporarily.
The big question is how to enable victims to report abuse and encourage them to do so with confidence they will be helped, and also how to identify those who are likely to exert control over the vulnerable.
You'd hope that "lessons have been learned" and authorities are far more in tune with the issues, including not wanting to be seen as racist, which looks like it played a part. The welfare of the victims has to be the overriding priority. The irony of the Asian gang abuse cases being previously 'under the radar' but now firmly within the sights of the authorities is not only that offenders within that demographic may change their MO to attempt to avoid detection, but also that it can divert attention from other types of abuse, even if only temporarily.
The big question is how to enable victims to report abuse and encourage them to do so with confidence they will be helped, and also how to identify those who are likely to exert control over the vulnerable.
desolate said:
Isn't one of the issues that it's only recently that teenagers have stopped being seen as fair game.
They aren't seen as kids but as young adults.
I know for a fact Bennell said one of his 14 yr old accusers wasn't a child as he was "bigger than him". The girls abused by these gangs came from either care or difficult backgrounds - they were difficult to control so it was easier for the authorities to see it as a consensual voluntary act. Add in the race card and the our traditional reluctance to address this sort of thing as rape and you have a s
tstorm. I would imagine there was an organised crime element as well.
Yes – it’s one of the classic responses when avoiding blame. A 14 year old cannot give such consent, of course. In one of my worst cases I had to interview a paedophile whose defence was that, prior to his commiting his offence, he’d been led on and sexually teased – by a four year old girl. In my experience, these abusers will deflect, dodge, pass blame and lie to avoid the damning truth – like alcoholics, accepting blame and consequence is one of the first and important steps. However, (hence my comments about trying to understand where the abuse is coming from) getting people to accept that first step depends on where the abuse is driven from and challenging that specific perspective.They aren't seen as kids but as young adults.
I know for a fact Bennell said one of his 14 yr old accusers wasn't a child as he was "bigger than him". The girls abused by these gangs came from either care or difficult backgrounds - they were difficult to control so it was easier for the authorities to see it as a consensual voluntary act. Add in the race card and the our traditional reluctance to address this sort of thing as rape and you have a s
tstorm. I would imagine there was an organised crime element as well.Digga said:
otally.
The irony of the Asian gang abuse cases being previously 'under the radar' but now firmly within the sights of the authorities is not only that offenders within that demographic may change their MO to attempt to avoid detection, but also that it can divert attention from other types of abuse, even if only temporarily.
The big question is how to enable victims to report abuse and encourage them to do so with confidence they will be helped, and also how to identify those who are likely to exert control over the vulnerable.
"Firmly within the sights of the authorities"The irony of the Asian gang abuse cases being previously 'under the radar' but now firmly within the sights of the authorities is not only that offenders within that demographic may change their MO to attempt to avoid detection, but also that it can divert attention from other types of abuse, even if only temporarily.
The big question is how to enable victims to report abuse and encourage them to do so with confidence they will be helped, and also how to identify those who are likely to exert control over the vulnerable.
Which authorities would these be ?
Sarah champion, is she part of these authorities ?
We can talk about all manner of abuse and abusers, but Still struggle to raise this aspect.
MikeT66 said:
Yes – it’s one of the classic responses when avoiding blame. A 14 year old cannot give such consent, of course. In one of my worst cases I had to interview a paedophile whose defence was that, prior to his commiting his offence, he’d been led on and sexually teased – by a four year old girl. In my experience, these abusers will deflect, dodge, pass blame and lie to avoid the damning truth – like alcoholics, accepting blame and consequence is one of the first and important steps. However, (hence my comments about trying to understand where the abuse is coming from) getting people to accept that first step depends on where the abuse is driven from and challenging that specific perspective.
But that's only true if the person knows that their actions are wrong and not acceptable, but how do we deal with people who come from cultures where this behaviour has been normalised for centuries?lyonspride said:
MikeT66 said:
Yes – it’s one of the classic responses when avoiding blame. A 14 year old cannot give such consent, of course. In one of my worst cases I had to interview a paedophile whose defence was that, prior to his commiting his offence, he’d been led on and sexually teased – by a four year old girl. In my experience, these abusers will deflect, dodge, pass blame and lie to avoid the damning truth – like alcoholics, accepting blame and consequence is one of the first and important steps. However, (hence my comments about trying to understand where the abuse is coming from) getting people to accept that first step depends on where the abuse is driven from and challenging that specific perspective.
But that's only true if the person knows that their actions are wrong and not acceptable, but how do we deal with people who come from cultures where this behaviour has been normalised for centuries?Nevertheless, we must adhere to the culture that we have in the UK - it is sexual abuse of minors, and we should never be afraid of asking the awkward questions. And, trust me, they are awkward questions - sitting opposite someone and getting them to talk about their sexual abuse of their own pre-teen daughter, etc. is never a good place to be, but we must do it.
One other thing, though, is that, as uncomfortable as it may be, simply locking these f
kers away isn't the whole answer. We need to understand where the seed of the abuse came from in order to tackle if at the very heart, and that can only come about through interviews and counselling. Like the would-be terrorists that have been de-radicalised using counselling programmes, there perhaps lies an answer.Alpinestars said:
The reason I bother posting on here is not because I can provide solutions for the abuse, I don't have any insights that you or anyone else has, but to point out that it's not only an immigrant, Pakistani, Muslim problem that some people seem to think it is. It runs through all society. There are too many disingenuous posters who are ostensibly worried about the abuse, but only ever appear on Asian, immigrant, Muslim threads. If they were honest about the problem of sexual abuse, I wouldn't have a lot to say on this thread, and we'd all be in agreement about the scum who perpetrate these crimes.
Who on earth has said this? No one.I honestly believe you are reading what you want to see rather than what people have actually written, because you want an outlet for your SJW soapboxing. Your nonsensical replies and accusations to me back this up.
The thread was started about a specific issue perpetrated by Pakistanis, and yet you devoted almost every post into deflecting this. If people arent prepared to talk about it then it will never be resolved.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Thursday 1st March 06:54
Mr2Mike said:
Alpinestars said:
The reason I bother posting on here is not because I can provide solutions for the abuse, I don't have any insights that you or anyone else has, but to point out that it's not only an immigrant, Pakistani, Muslim problem that some people seem to think it is. It runs through all society. There are too many disingenuous posters who are ostensibly worried about the abuse, but only ever appear on Asian, immigrant, Muslim threads. If they were honest about the problem of sexual abuse, I wouldn't have a lot to say on this thread, and we'd all be in agreement about the scum who perpetrate these crimes.
Who on earth has said this? No one.I honestly believe you are reading what you want to see rather than what people have actually written, because you want an outlet for your SJW soapboxing. Your nonsensical replies and accusations to me back this up.
The thread was started about a specific issue perpetrated by Pakistanis, and yet you devoted almost every post into deflecting this. If people arent prepared to talk about it then it will never be resolved.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Thursday 1st March 06:54
MikeT66 said:
It's a very good question, lyonspride. Transpose, say, a safety-pinned, pierced and mohican-haired punk rocker into a Papua New Guinea tribe (or even a town in America's Bible-belt, for that matter) and they'd probably think he was a bit deranged. What seems OK in one culture doens't always fit with others. That's where the proper investigation needs to focus, though - what was the driving force behind these abuses? I have no doubt that some of the perpetrators will use Islamic teachings and text for condoning their actions, and indeed it may have been prevalent in the abusers' original culture. It certainly plays into the hands of the extreme-right, I think, in that we can be seen to be importing attitudes from 'backwards' parts of the world into the UK. In these cases, which is why I was keen to hear a sensible voice like Alpinestars, it may be more relevant to tackle the issues from within the belief framework and challenge it that way - I'm not sure the old multi-disciplinary way would work. It is certainly a complex problem given the nature of the potentially religious ideology defence, and that (as we've seen in Rotherham, etc) can make challenging it a political minefield.
Nevertheless, we must adhere to the culture that we have in the UK - it is sexual abuse of minors, and we should never be afraid of asking the awkward questions. And, trust me, they are awkward questions - sitting opposite someone and getting them to talk about their sexual abuse of their own pre-teen daughter, etc. is never a good place to be, but we must do it.
One other thing, though, is that, as uncomfortable as it may be, simply locking these fkers away isn't the whole answer. We need to understand where the seed of the abuse came from in order to tackle if at the very heart, and that can only come about through interviews and counselling. Like the would-be terrorists that have been de-radicalised using counselling programmes, there perhaps lies an answer.
If you believe culture drives sexual abuse, how do you explain type 2 offenders? Or the fact that sexual abuse is pandemic? Nevertheless, we must adhere to the culture that we have in the UK - it is sexual abuse of minors, and we should never be afraid of asking the awkward questions. And, trust me, they are awkward questions - sitting opposite someone and getting them to talk about their sexual abuse of their own pre-teen daughter, etc. is never a good place to be, but we must do it.
One other thing, though, is that, as uncomfortable as it may be, simply locking these f
kers away isn't the whole answer. We need to understand where the seed of the abuse came from in order to tackle if at the very heart, and that can only come about through interviews and counselling. Like the would-be terrorists that have been de-radicalised using counselling programmes, there perhaps lies an answer.Alpinestars said:
There are too many disingenuous posters who are ostensibly worried about the abuse, but only ever appear on Asian, immigrant, Muslim threads. If they were honest about the problem of sexual abuse, I wouldn't have a lot to say on this thread, and we'd all be in agreement about the scum who perpetrate these crimes.
M2rMike said:
The thread was started about a specific issue perpetrated by Pakistanis,...
Why? Why does it matter particularly that it was “Pakistanis”? And just as people have correctly pointed out that it wasn’t “Asians’ should it also be pointed out that it wasn’t ALL “Pakistanis”? That it seemed to be related particularly to Pakistani taxi drivers? After all, if the theory is that we really need to look closely at this particular issue then it seems logical to focus on the exact background of the offenders and not just label them as “Pakistanis”....?To me it’s little different to any of the multiple other sex abuse scandals. It’s a “group of men” who had access/control/power over a group of young women, and they used that power for their own gratification. You see the same issue replicated across different groups.
Countdown said:
Alpinestars said:
There are too many disingenuous posters who are ostensibly worried about the abuse, but only ever appear on Asian, immigrant, Muslim threads. If they were honest about the problem of sexual abuse, I wouldn't have a lot to say on this thread, and we'd all be in agreement about the scum who perpetrate these crimes.
M2rMike said:
The thread was started about a specific issue perpetrated by Pakistanis,...
Why? Why does it matter particularly that it was “Pakistanis”? And just as people have correctly pointed out that it wasn’t “Asians’ should it also be pointed out that it wasn’t ALL “Pakistanis”? That it seemed to be related particularly to Pakistani taxi drivers? After all, if the theory is that we really need to look closely at this particular issue then it seems logical to focus on the exact background of the offenders and not just label them as “Pakistanis”....?To me it’s little different to any of the multiple other sex abuse scandals. It’s a “group of men” who had access/control/power over a group of young women, and they used that power for their own gratification. You see the same issue replicated across different groups.
It's small progress that we actually seem to be able to talk about it now.
WinstonWolf said:
Because there seems to be a culture amongst Pakistanis that women are somehow second class citizens, this needs to be addressed.
Do you think this culture is unique to Pakistani/Mirpuri taxi drivers? If not then why did we not see a more "diverse" range of offenders?Countdown said:
To me it’s little different to any of the multiple other sex abuse scandals. It’s a “group of men” who had access/control/power over a group of young women, and they used that power for their own gratification. You see the same issue replicated across different groups.
In broad terms no.However, each of these different groups have different profiles; different cultural and cognitive motivations. In the case of the Asian, Muslim abuse gangs, their motivations are very, very different from, say, Catholic priests or those celebrities ensnared by project Yew Tree.
Alpinestars said:
If you believe culture drives sexual abuse, how do you explain type 2 offenders? Or the fact that sexual abuse is pandemic?
It's not always culture - I didn't say it was. In these instances of grooming gangs (no matter the ethnicity) there may some correlation with a cultural background. That would be for the investigation to conclude and disclose.For balance, the biggest investigation I was involved in were predominantly white families from the big housing estates in Hull. I was always amazed at the extent that this cancer ran... and how the circle of abuse was hidden, and yet propagated and spread. The addition of different cultural backgrounds simply complicates matters, as it can be another layer for investigators to break through.
Digga said:
Countdown said:
To me it’s little different to any of the multiple other sex abuse scandals. It’s a “group of men” who had access/control/power over a group of young women, and they used that power for their own gratification. You see the same issue replicated across different groups.
In broad terms no.However, each of these different groups have different profiles; different cultural and cognitive motivations. In the case of the Asian, Muslim abuse gangs, their motivations are very, very different from, say, Catholic priests or those celebrities ensnared by project Yew Tree.
Countdown said:
Digga said:
Countdown said:
To me it’s little different to any of the multiple other sex abuse scandals. It’s a “group of men” who had access/control/power over a group of young women, and they used that power for their own gratification. You see the same issue replicated across different groups.
In broad terms no.However, each of these different groups have different profiles; different cultural and cognitive motivations. In the case of the Asian, Muslim abuse gangs, their motivations are very, very different from, say, Catholic priests or those celebrities ensnared by project Yew Tree.
It's incredibly clear that some of these factors can be related to all of the abuse groups.
Countdown said:
WinstonWolf said:
Because there seems to be a culture amongst Pakistanis that women are somehow second class citizens, this needs to be addressed.
Do you think this culture is unique to Pakistani/Mirpuri taxi drivers? If not then why did we not see a more "diverse" range of offenders?WinstonWolf said:
Countdown said:
Alpinestars said:
There are too many disingenuous posters who are ostensibly worried about the abuse, but only ever appear on Asian, immigrant, Muslim threads. If they were honest about the problem of sexual abuse, I wouldn't have a lot to say on this thread, and we'd all be in agreement about the scum who perpetrate these crimes.
M2rMike said:
The thread was started about a specific issue perpetrated by Pakistanis,...
Why? Why does it matter particularly that it was “Pakistanis”? And just as people have correctly pointed out that it wasn’t “Asians’ should it also be pointed out that it wasn’t ALL “Pakistanis”? That it seemed to be related particularly to Pakistani taxi drivers? After all, if the theory is that we really need to look closely at this particular issue then it seems logical to focus on the exact background of the offenders and not just label them as “Pakistanis”....?To me it’s little different to any of the multiple other sex abuse scandals. It’s a “group of men” who had access/control/power over a group of young women, and they used that power for their own gratification. You see the same issue replicated across different groups.
It's small progress that we actually seem to be able to talk about it now.
Both my sisters and my partner, and a whole lot of mates girlfriends or wives have had issue with (for want of a better description) Asian taxi drivers. Sometimes extreme aggro, so at times they've had to tell them to pull over and risk walking home than stay in their taxi.
This isnt something that is confined to large cities either, it has happened in small towns as well, its happened/happens in mine. It has got to the point where my partner openly refuses to enter a taxi even with me, when certain taxi drivers turn up.
This is an issue that needs to be discussed openly, because it a far bigger issue than some realise, and i hate to think how many cases are not reported.
I understand, that this sounds like I'm being raciest, and we all know that it happens at time to time with other races, but I'd put my btm dollar on it that in the Asian/Middle Eastern communities of taxi drivers, they are the largest groups that feel its their right to treat women (especially if boozed up) white women as second class citizens, and there to be degraded..
Digga said:
Countdown said:
Digga said:
Countdown said:
To me it’s little different to any of the multiple other sex abuse scandals. It’s a “group of men” who had access/control/power over a group of young women, and they used that power for their own gratification. You see the same issue replicated across different groups.
In broad terms no.However, each of these different groups have different profiles; different cultural and cognitive motivations. In the case of the Asian, Muslim abuse gangs, their motivations are very, very different from, say, Catholic priests or those celebrities ensnared by project Yew Tree.
It's incredibly clear that some of these factors can be related to all of the abuse groups.
Whilst I referenced scoutmasters/RC priests/radio 1 DJs the underlying factors are similar and also cover a broad spectrum of offences in terms of severity.
At the very mild end (which some argue was completely acceptable) was the Presidents Club, where you had men touching up female employees - some of the excuses being put forward were "well, what did they expect, dressed in short skirts and skimpy underwear". Nobody has said that this behaviour was based on religion or culture even though the perpetrators were predominantly successful middle aged white men (and rightly so because it's irrelevant). There have also been a few cases of Politicians touching up Journalists, there have been numerous cases of celebs molesting people, including the use of alcohol and drugs. In both cases, similar types of groups with shared backgrounds.
The point I'm trying to make is that the common factors are: A group of men who have a significant amount of power/control/access to women who are in a vulnerable situation and willing to use their power for sexual gratification. there may be different flavours/ingredients but it comes down to the same thing.
Countdown said:
Unless I'm missing something, i think we're in agreement..
Broadly, yes we are.Countdown said:
The point I'm trying to make is that the common factors are: A group of men who have a significant amount of power/control/access to women who are in a vulnerable situation and willing to use their power for sexual gratification. there may be different flavours/ingredients but it comes down to the same thing.
I think what has to be acknowledged WRT some sub-sets of Asian Muslim groups is their propensity to these tendencies and also the way in which existing within a somewhat parallel society - rather than in what the majority of the country, irrespective of race or religion would consider generalised norms - inculcates and facilitates these views, whilst also insulating them from opinion and ideals to the contrary.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff