another abuse gang
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Here we go again. Not wanting to accept facts. They ARE British by virtue of birth. That's a fact. Do they espouse British values (whatever they are)? No. But I don't think they espouse value of any nation. What makes they Muslim? Because I don't think they are conforming to the teachings of that religion any more than they are to British culture. But again, as a matter of fact they are Muslims, by virtue of being "born into the religion".
British, Pakistani, Muslim.
Digga said:
The U.K. has a great history of racial and cultural diversity. Despite some of the more questionable moments of the empire, a benefit was a huge exposure to and integration with other races and cultures.
We were at the forefront of the civilised world's abolition of slavery.
When black American servicemen came over in numbers during WW2, the fact we had no segregation was a small influence in the subsequent changes in US civil rights.
I'm proud of British inclusiveness. I acknowledge its far from perfect, but it's up there with the best. Which is why, when there are issues which threaten what we have, it's crucial they are dealt with directly and transparently, without either scapegoating or obfuscation, whatever the motive.
Agreed. We were at the forefront of the civilised world's abolition of slavery.
When black American servicemen came over in numbers during WW2, the fact we had no segregation was a small influence in the subsequent changes in US civil rights.
I'm proud of British inclusiveness. I acknowledge its far from perfect, but it's up there with the best. Which is why, when there are issues which threaten what we have, it's crucial they are dealt with directly and transparently, without either scapegoating or obfuscation, whatever the motive.
This thread was not started specifically to talk about the asian abuse gang phenomenon, (problem, issue, or whatever one wants to call it). It was started to try to understand how groups of men can actually engage in these kinds of acts together, how it can come about that you can have such large groups of like minded individuals. - I think issue is that most of us (all of us?) simply struggle with how this whole thing comes to pass. If any normal person were approached by friends and told "hey I've got a sexy 12 year old here, fancy a turn on her" they'd be calling the police pronto (probably after they had thumped the inviter! )
There have been threads in the past on PH (I have been on here toooooooo long) about the problems with catholic priests (for example) and how, in too many cases, they used their position of authority to abuse the children entrusted to their care by devout parents, and how the mechanisms of positions of trust and social /religious structures combined to ensure that the scandals were either not believed or covered up until recent years.
I also remember a long running thread about one Jimmy Savile and how he was able to take advantage of his celebrity and power to seemingly abuse at will, with impunity.
So it is fair to say that discussions about other abusers have been aired openly here, and I don't think that anyone would deny that there are problems in various parts of society.
This thread seems to have morphed into a wide ranging discussion about the specific problem of asian (Pakistani) grooming gangs. In that sense whataboutery towards other groups and individuals coupled with the repeated pointing to statistics about the numbers of white paedophiles are likely to be interpreted as deflection. One would be incredibly surprised if , in a predominantly white country the majority of crimes of any sort were not being carried out by white people.
The problem with deflection tactics in regards to the Pakistani muslim gangs is that they are seen as seeking to thwart any investigation into the cultural, religious and social reasons for how this particular sub set of abusers come together to do what they do. By doing this, by refusing to acknowledge that this particular subset have specific characteristics that need to be understood if they are to be prevented in the future, then not only do we run the risk of there being thousands more victims in the future, but we also run the risks of deep, irreconcilable and potentially violent fractures between mainstream society and a minority ethnic community.
It is quite understandable that decent members of any minority community are going to be defensive about things when faced with a never ending stream of the worst kind of stories centred on the scum in their own communities. Deflection and whataboutery are not the answer. But neither is it the case that the decent folk should always have to speak up against the scum who share the same cultural heritage just so as to appease the angry mob. Instead, openness and a willingness to be a part of the wider solution should characterise the way forward for everyone.
FTR I have zero doubt that Alpinestars and Countdown are decent blokes. I also do not doubt that they are as appalled by what is coming into the public domain now as any other decent person in the country.
There have been threads in the past on PH (I have been on here toooooooo long) about the problems with catholic priests (for example) and how, in too many cases, they used their position of authority to abuse the children entrusted to their care by devout parents, and how the mechanisms of positions of trust and social /religious structures combined to ensure that the scandals were either not believed or covered up until recent years.
I also remember a long running thread about one Jimmy Savile and how he was able to take advantage of his celebrity and power to seemingly abuse at will, with impunity.
So it is fair to say that discussions about other abusers have been aired openly here, and I don't think that anyone would deny that there are problems in various parts of society.
This thread seems to have morphed into a wide ranging discussion about the specific problem of asian (Pakistani) grooming gangs. In that sense whataboutery towards other groups and individuals coupled with the repeated pointing to statistics about the numbers of white paedophiles are likely to be interpreted as deflection. One would be incredibly surprised if , in a predominantly white country the majority of crimes of any sort were not being carried out by white people.
The problem with deflection tactics in regards to the Pakistani muslim gangs is that they are seen as seeking to thwart any investigation into the cultural, religious and social reasons for how this particular sub set of abusers come together to do what they do. By doing this, by refusing to acknowledge that this particular subset have specific characteristics that need to be understood if they are to be prevented in the future, then not only do we run the risk of there being thousands more victims in the future, but we also run the risks of deep, irreconcilable and potentially violent fractures between mainstream society and a minority ethnic community.
It is quite understandable that decent members of any minority community are going to be defensive about things when faced with a never ending stream of the worst kind of stories centred on the scum in their own communities. Deflection and whataboutery are not the answer. But neither is it the case that the decent folk should always have to speak up against the scum who share the same cultural heritage just so as to appease the angry mob. Instead, openness and a willingness to be a part of the wider solution should characterise the way forward for everyone.
FTR I have zero doubt that Alpinestars and Countdown are decent blokes. I also do not doubt that they are as appalled by what is coming into the public domain now as any other decent person in the country.
andymadmak said:
balanced stuff
The issue for me is that the discussion all to regularly has posts that are not about the matter at hand but are just rants about Muslims/Pakistanis.Generally that's when other posters step in to challenge.
I don't see any denials.
I'd like to see a balanced discussion about how this is to be addressed and I'd also like to see the police and social services role examined. I am not buying the PC angle.
andymadmak said:
This thread was not started specifically to talk about the asian abuse gang phenomenon, (problem, issue, or whatever one wants to call it). It was started to try to understand how groups of men can actually engage in these kinds of acts together, how it can come about that you can have such large groups of like minded individuals. - I think issue is that most of us (all of us?) simply struggle with how this whole thing comes to pass. If any normal person were approached by friends and told "hey I've got a sexy 12 year old here, fancy a turn on her" they'd be calling the police pronto (probably after they had thumped the inviter! )
There have been threads in the past on PH (I have been on here toooooooo long) about the problems with catholic priests (for example) and how, in too many cases, they used their position of authority to abuse the children entrusted to their care by devout parents, and how the mechanisms of positions of trust and social /religious structures combined to ensure that the scandals were either not believed or covered up until recent years.
I also remember a long running thread about one Jimmy Savile and how he was able to take advantage of his celebrity and power to seemingly abuse at will, with impunity.
So it is fair to say that discussions about other abusers have been aired openly here, and I don't think that anyone would deny that there are problems in various parts of society.
This thread seems to have morphed into a wide ranging discussion about the specific problem of asian (Pakistani) grooming gangs. In that sense whataboutery towards other groups and individuals coupled with the repeated pointing to statistics about the numbers of white paedophiles are likely to be interpreted as deflection. One would be incredibly surprised if , in a predominantly white country the majority of crimes of any sort were not being carried out by white people.
The problem with deflection tactics in regards to the Pakistani muslim gangs is that they are seen as seeking to thwart any investigation into the cultural, religious and social reasons for how this particular sub set of abusers come together to do what they do. By doing this, by refusing to acknowledge that this particular subset have specific characteristics that need to be understood if they are to be prevented in the future, then not only do we run the risk of there being thousands more victims in the future, but we also run the risks of deep, irreconcilable and potentially violent fractures between mainstream society and a minority ethnic community.
It is quite understandable that decent members of any minority community are going to be defensive about things when faced with a never ending stream of the worst kind of stories centred on the scum in their own communities. Deflection and whataboutery are not the answer. But neither is it the case that the decent folk should always have to speak up against the scum who share the same cultural heritage just so as to appease the angry mob. Instead, openness and a willingness to be a part of the wider solution should characterise the way forward for everyone.
FTR I have zero doubt that Alpinestars and Countdown are decent blokes. I also do not doubt that they are as appalled by what is coming into the public domain now as any other decent person in the country.
Good constructive post.There have been threads in the past on PH (I have been on here toooooooo long) about the problems with catholic priests (for example) and how, in too many cases, they used their position of authority to abuse the children entrusted to their care by devout parents, and how the mechanisms of positions of trust and social /religious structures combined to ensure that the scandals were either not believed or covered up until recent years.
I also remember a long running thread about one Jimmy Savile and how he was able to take advantage of his celebrity and power to seemingly abuse at will, with impunity.
So it is fair to say that discussions about other abusers have been aired openly here, and I don't think that anyone would deny that there are problems in various parts of society.
This thread seems to have morphed into a wide ranging discussion about the specific problem of asian (Pakistani) grooming gangs. In that sense whataboutery towards other groups and individuals coupled with the repeated pointing to statistics about the numbers of white paedophiles are likely to be interpreted as deflection. One would be incredibly surprised if , in a predominantly white country the majority of crimes of any sort were not being carried out by white people.
The problem with deflection tactics in regards to the Pakistani muslim gangs is that they are seen as seeking to thwart any investigation into the cultural, religious and social reasons for how this particular sub set of abusers come together to do what they do. By doing this, by refusing to acknowledge that this particular subset have specific characteristics that need to be understood if they are to be prevented in the future, then not only do we run the risk of there being thousands more victims in the future, but we also run the risks of deep, irreconcilable and potentially violent fractures between mainstream society and a minority ethnic community.
It is quite understandable that decent members of any minority community are going to be defensive about things when faced with a never ending stream of the worst kind of stories centred on the scum in their own communities. Deflection and whataboutery are not the answer. But neither is it the case that the decent folk should always have to speak up against the scum who share the same cultural heritage just so as to appease the angry mob. Instead, openness and a willingness to be a part of the wider solution should characterise the way forward for everyone.
FTR I have zero doubt that Alpinestars and Countdown are decent blokes. I also do not doubt that they are as appalled by what is coming into the public domain now as any other decent person in the country.
Digga said:
The U.K. has a great history of racial and cultural diversity. Despite some of the more questionable moments of the empire, a benefit was a huge exposure to and integration with other races and cultures.
We were at the forefront of the civilised world's abolition of slavery.
When black American servicemen came over in numbers during WW2, the fact we had no segregation was a small influence in the subsequent changes in US civil rights.
I'm proud of British inclusiveness. I acknowledge its far from perfect, but it's up there with the best. Which is why, when there are issues which threaten what we have, it's crucial they are dealt with directly and transparently, without either scapegoating or obfuscation, whatever the motive.
Solid post, as ever. We were at the forefront of the civilised world's abolition of slavery.
When black American servicemen came over in numbers during WW2, the fact we had no segregation was a small influence in the subsequent changes in US civil rights.
I'm proud of British inclusiveness. I acknowledge its far from perfect, but it's up there with the best. Which is why, when there are issues which threaten what we have, it's crucial they are dealt with directly and transparently, without either scapegoating or obfuscation, whatever the motive.
desolate said:
andymadmak said:
balanced stuff
The issue for me is that the discussion all to regularly has posts that are not about the matter at hand but are just rants about Muslims/Pakistanis.Generally that's when other posters step in to challenge.
I don't see any denials.
I'd like to see a balanced discussion about how this is to be addressed and I'd also like to see the police and social services role examined. I am not buying the PC angle.
desolate said:
I'd also like to see the police and social services role examined......
This is a vital point that I think needs to be examined far more. I have read that both police and social services turned a blind eye to what was going on for several reasons, including1. The police thought the girls (in many cases) were just trouble makers
2. Social services wanted to believe that the girls were in consensual relationships (despite the age differences and the illegalities involved)
3. It was career suicide to suggest that there was a problem with people from particular communities
4. When it became clear that something was going seriously wrong there was an overwhelming culture of cover up
5. The failure to act by police and social services created a sense of impunity amongst the abusers
6. Victims were too terrified to speak out and social services did little to enable them to do so
7. Community cohesion was deemed to be too important to risk any meaningful investigation
8. The social care system (from which many of the victims were drawn) failed completely to adequately control the young people it was responsible for at the most basic levels - children were openly collected by their abusers from the doors of the care homes
Sadly I do think that a PC culture played a significant role - but does not explain everything
The police and social services missed it for fear of being branded racist, individuals reported it and they were sent for diversity training, the same thing happened with Saville et al at the BBC, they all knew it was going on but no one said anything, these cum drops were hiding in plain sight, be they Pakistani/British or White middle class entertainers
The British/Pakistani community has deep rooted misogyny issues that they say are cultutal, mainly by the men, funny that.., there are issues with white British girls being classed as sluts due to the fact they are allowed out unaccompanied, wear revealing clothes etc etc
Can we all agree that all that the authorities should have picked up on the reports in the 80's? This cannot be allowed to happen again, be they CSE cases, the Catholic priests and young boys or even the Harvey Weinsteins of this World.
I don't have the answers but the matter needs to be kept in the spotlight or it will once again disappear
The British/Pakistani community has deep rooted misogyny issues that they say are cultutal, mainly by the men, funny that.., there are issues with white British girls being classed as sluts due to the fact they are allowed out unaccompanied, wear revealing clothes etc etc
Can we all agree that all that the authorities should have picked up on the reports in the 80's? This cannot be allowed to happen again, be they CSE cases, the Catholic priests and young boys or even the Harvey Weinsteins of this World.
I don't have the answers but the matter needs to be kept in the spotlight or it will once again disappear
andymadmak said:
desolate said:
I'd also like to see the police and social services role examined......
This is a vital point that I think needs to be examined far more. I have read that both police and social services turned a blind eye to what was going on for several reasons, including1. The police thought the girls (in many cases) were just trouble makers
2. Social services wanted to believe that the girls were in consensual relationships (despite the age differences and the illegalities involved)
3. It was career suicide to suggest that there was a problem with people from particular communities
4. When it became clear that something was going seriously wrong there was an overwhelming culture of cover up
5. The failure to act by police and social services created a sense of impunity amongst the abusers
6. Victims were too terrified to speak out and social services did little to enable them to do so
7. Community cohesion was deemed to be too important to risk any meaningful investigation
8. The social care system (from which many of the victims were drawn) failed completely to adequately control the young people it was responsible for at the most basic levels - children were openly collected by their abusers from the doors of the care homes
Sadly I do think that a PC culture played a significant role - but does not explain everything
Very well said.Reading the Telford report from 2016, there's another point too - severe lack of resources. That makes it very clear that the team who were supposed to be looking after the vulnerable girls were having to deal with twice the nationally recommended number of cases per staff member. Also that the promised funding to allow Barnados to assist with some cases (whether charities should be expected to carry out the work of social services is a whole other debate) didn't arrive.
andymc said:
The police and social services missed it for fear of being branded racist, individuals reported it and they were sent for diversity training, the same thing happened with Saville et al at the BBC, they all knew it was going on but no one said anything, these cum drops were hiding in plain sight, be they Pakistani/British or White middle class entertainers
The British/Pakistani community has deep rooted misogyny issues that they say are cultutal, mainly by the men, funny that.., there are issues with white British girls being classed as sluts due to the fact they are allowed out unaccompanied, wear revealing clothes etc etc
Can we all agree that all that the authorities should have picked up on the reports in the 80's? This cannot be allowed to happen again, be they CSE cases, the Catholic priests and young boys or even the Harvey Weinsteins of this World.
I don't have the answers but the matter needs to be kept in the spotlight or it will once again disappear
The common theme is everyone seemed to hold the victims in contempt. This was until very recently - not "historic" and you can bet it's still go on now . (there was a thread about a footballer where certain posters thought it was OK as she enjoyed it and boasted about it)The British/Pakistani community has deep rooted misogyny issues that they say are cultutal, mainly by the men, funny that.., there are issues with white British girls being classed as sluts due to the fact they are allowed out unaccompanied, wear revealing clothes etc etc
Can we all agree that all that the authorities should have picked up on the reports in the 80's? This cannot be allowed to happen again, be they CSE cases, the Catholic priests and young boys or even the Harvey Weinsteins of this World.
I don't have the answers but the matter needs to be kept in the spotlight or it will once again disappear
Colleagues, employers, family, "the system" all apologised for the perpetrators and just moved the problem on to somewhere else, or worse still blamed the victims. This is common across all classes of this type of abuse.
We can talk about education and integration all we want: but if we lock up men who f
k girls under 16 even the thick, culturally ignorant knobs involved in this type of crime will get the message and move on to some other MO.And sack the police and social services who allowed it to continue.
desolate said:
andymadmak said:
balanced stuff
The issue for me is that the discussion all to regularly has posts that are not about the matter at hand but are just rants about Muslims/Pakistanis.Generally that's when other posters step in to challenge.
I don't see any denials.
I'd like to see a balanced discussion about how this is to be addressed and I'd also like to see the police and social services role examined. I am not buying the PC angle.
andymc said:
The police and social services missed it for fear of being branded racist, individuals reported it and they were sent for diversity training, the same thing happened with Saville et al at the BBC, they all knew it was going on but no one said anything, these cum drops were hiding in plain sight, be they Pakistani/British or White middle class entertainers
The British/Pakistani community has deep rooted misogyny issues that they say are cultutal, mainly by the men, funny that.., there are issues with white British girls being classed as sluts due to the fact they are allowed out unaccompanied, wear revealing clothes etc etc
Can we all agree that all that the authorities should have picked up on the reports in the 80's? This cannot be allowed to happen again, be they CSE cases, the Catholic priests and young boys or even the Harvey Weinsteins of this World.
I don't have the answers but the matter needs to be kept in the spotlight or it will once again disappear
Agreed. And hopefully those who know this goes on in the various communities will also speak up. Zero tolerance, with the interests of the victim at the heart of everything. Not the feelings and power of the perpetrators. The British/Pakistani community has deep rooted misogyny issues that they say are cultutal, mainly by the men, funny that.., there are issues with white British girls being classed as sluts due to the fact they are allowed out unaccompanied, wear revealing clothes etc etc
Can we all agree that all that the authorities should have picked up on the reports in the 80's? This cannot be allowed to happen again, be they CSE cases, the Catholic priests and young boys or even the Harvey Weinsteins of this World.
I don't have the answers but the matter needs to be kept in the spotlight or it will once again disappear
Alpinestars said:
andymc said:
The police and social services missed it for fear of being branded racist, individuals reported it and they were sent for diversity training, the same thing happened with Saville et al at the BBC, they all knew it was going on but no one said anything, these cum drops were hiding in plain sight, be they Pakistani/British or White middle class entertainers
The British/Pakistani community has deep rooted misogyny issues that they say are cultutal, mainly by the men, funny that.., there are issues with white British girls being classed as sluts due to the fact they are allowed out unaccompanied, wear revealing clothes etc etc
Can we all agree that all that the authorities should have picked up on the reports in the 80's? This cannot be allowed to happen again, be they CSE cases, the Catholic priests and young boys or even the Harvey Weinsteins of this World.
I don't have the answers but the matter needs to be kept in the spotlight or it will once again disappear
Agreed. And hopefully those who know this goes on in the various communities will also speak up. Zero tolerance, with the interests of the victim at the heart of everything. Not the feelings and power of the perpetrators. The British/Pakistani community has deep rooted misogyny issues that they say are cultutal, mainly by the men, funny that.., there are issues with white British girls being classed as sluts due to the fact they are allowed out unaccompanied, wear revealing clothes etc etc
Can we all agree that all that the authorities should have picked up on the reports in the 80's? This cannot be allowed to happen again, be they CSE cases, the Catholic priests and young boys or even the Harvey Weinsteins of this World.
I don't have the answers but the matter needs to be kept in the spotlight or it will once again disappear
Some extremely good, balanced posts here. I think we all agree that people posting at either extreme; flat denial or blatant racism not only derail the debate but are indicative of two sides of the same problem.
As for being 'British'; it's really down to shared values. And, I'd agree, queuing.
As for being 'British'; it's really down to shared values. And, I'd agree, queuing.
Digga said:
Some extremely good, balanced posts here. I think we all agree that people posting at either extreme; flat denial or blatant racism not only derail the debate but are indicative of two sides of the same problem.
As for being 'British'; it's really down to shared values. And, I'd agree, queuing.
Not sure what you mean about queuing. The fact is they are British. But I don't think the British slant has anything to do with the issue. I also don't think being Muslim has anything/much to do with the issue. What they do is pretty Unislamic - drugs, drink, rape etc. Their Pakistani culture may well have a lot to do with it. Generally patriarchal and a disrespect of (some?) white girls. I also think their jobs, generally taxi drivers/owners of take always etc, gave them a way of coming into contact with the victims, perhaps without drawing a huge amount of attention? As I've said before, I don't think we will have as many current and future cases similar to what's been happening, because the MO is now well publicised. As for being 'British'; it's really down to shared values. And, I'd agree, queuing.
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