another abuse gang
Discussion
magnum555 said:
I'm not defending anyone but this continually attack on one group will only create discrimination and hatred. One community cannot be held accountable, it's completely illogical. Time and time its been proven these crimes are committed by all colours. I've just given you a link of white english men holding paedo parties.
OK, one last time....1. Nobody is saying that ONLY Pakistani males abuse children
2. People are pointing out that different groups of abusers exhibit patterns which give clues as to how the abuse came about - this is important as it enables society to look out for those patterns and in some cases actively look to change those patterns so as to protect potential victims from abuse in the future.
3. ONE of the patterns identified is that of Pakistani males in various areas around the country. These people have a particularly distinct mode of operation (pattern) and (and this is the most important part for you to understand) are at least 6 yes SIX! times more likely to be committing these sorts of offences than other ethnic groups (including white people) when the crimes are assessed against the % of the population of each ethnic group. Now that is a pattern that needs to be investigated does it not?
4. Nobody is saying that investigating the pattern above precludes society from investigating any of the other emerging patterns of abuse. Be they Catholic priests, 70s celebs, or Hungarian Donkey breeders* , they all need stopping and that is best achieved by understanding the particular drivers and reasons behind the activities of each group.
- I may have made this category up..maybe.
I don't usually do "Wiki" but this page contains all sorts of links and info that even you Mr Magnum should find compelling..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_traffick...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_traffick...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Count me in. I have no problem discussing the issues and highlighting the problems. Just wish the police, social services and the community had been as willing in the past 17 years. 1400 kids (at least) might not have had their childhoods ruined. Anyways, when are you not on shift? And when you say "all" will you be including your other taxi driver mates? I have some business trips coming up but given enough notice I can be there!
OpulentBob said:
Who in their right mind wants to sit with defenders of child abuse (who knows, maybe even the perpetrators of it) and "discuss" the issues aka listen to why it's the white slag b
hes fault?
Somebody has to talk to these people. Somebody has to keep repeating the basic truths until they start to listen. Until we get these people to understand then the potential for the problem to remain well into the future is there. hes fault?Magnum and his mates are either a part of the problem (directly or indirectly) or they can maybe form part of the solution. Thousands of kids is worth making the effort for. If talking fails then it fails, but we have to make the effort do we not? Otherwise we're just hypocrites imho.
I'll willingly get my hands in the muck if it saves a few kids
magnum555 said:
andymadmak said:
OpulentBob said:
Who in their right mind wants to sit with defenders of child abuse (who knows, maybe even the perpetrators of it) and "discuss" the issues aka listen to why it's the white slag bhes fault?
Somebody has to talk to these people. Somebody has to keep repeating the basic truths until they start to listen. Until we get these people to understand then the potential for the problem to remain well into the future is there. hes fault?Magnum and his mates are either a part of the problem (directly or indirectly) or they can maybe form part of the solution. Thousands of kids is worth making the effort for. If talking fails then it fails, but we have to make the effort do we not? Otherwise we're just hypocrites imho.
I'll willingly get my hands in the muck if it saves a few kids
Seriously though Magnum, I'm willing to talk to you and any number of your mates/colleagues/community (whatever floats your boat and you don't see as an insult) Your suggestion was that we should talk. I've accepted. Taslking might help to provide some sort of solution in some small way to this PARTICULAR type of abuse problem.
I'm failing to understand why you cannot see that by criticising some members of a community I am not criticising ALL members of that community...
XM5ER said:
[randmode]
Excuse me for borrowing your words here heebeegeetee, but I have noticed a few posters on here fall into the trap of thinking that "multiculturalism" is about people coming to UK (German, France, USA, insert western democracy name here) and assimilating to become part of one unified civilized (mostly) culture. I used to think that way too and let's be honest that is how things are dressed up to be. However the truth is hiding in plain sight, the clue is in the name multi-culturalism, in other words multiple cultures living in the same country.
The experiment that all "progressive" governed nations began in relatively recent history is most definitely part of a long term progressive game plan to break down the nation state, you can go rummaging through all kinds of old communist/socialist literature as far back as Marx to find reference to this kind of thinking. Strong national identities particularly those with strong values of self reliance such as in the USA or UK have long been recognized by the left as major hurdles to overcome in their move to power and they assault it along various vectors; multiculturalism is one of those vectors.
Again, sorry to hijak but I felt it needed saying.
[/randmode]
I agree. In fact I've been saying exactly this for yearsExcuse me for borrowing your words here heebeegeetee, but I have noticed a few posters on here fall into the trap of thinking that "multiculturalism" is about people coming to UK (German, France, USA, insert western democracy name here) and assimilating to become part of one unified civilized (mostly) culture. I used to think that way too and let's be honest that is how things are dressed up to be. However the truth is hiding in plain sight, the clue is in the name multi-culturalism, in other words multiple cultures living in the same country.
The experiment that all "progressive" governed nations began in relatively recent history is most definitely part of a long term progressive game plan to break down the nation state, you can go rummaging through all kinds of old communist/socialist literature as far back as Marx to find reference to this kind of thinking. Strong national identities particularly those with strong values of self reliance such as in the USA or UK have long been recognized by the left as major hurdles to overcome in their move to power and they assault it along various vectors; multiculturalism is one of those vectors.
Again, sorry to hijak but I felt it needed saying.
[/randmode]
chris watton said:
Funny, a few years ago, we were all taking the piss about that (not too well educated) Right winger who tried to tell us about the Muslim rape gangs, you know, that interview that we all laughed at (me included), and became an internet hit with the song 'Muslim Ray Guns'
How we all laughed and mocked at this simpleton, spreading his poisonous and deluded right wing lies, and is made us all feet better and confirmed our cultural sensitivity to mock....
yes. I remember this. Muslamic ray guns man. Still on youtube if you google it. Boy oh boy did I get into trouble on here with some posters when I suggested that deliberately misinterpreting what the fellow was saying (which is essentially what the lefties were doing) instead of addressing the issues he was raising would only make matters worse and would only serve to drive more people towards right wing extreme groups. - That way lies anarchy and significant levels of violence between communities. How we all laughed and mocked at this simpleton, spreading his poisonous and deluded right wing lies, and is made us all feet better and confirmed our cultural sensitivity to mock....
Muslamic ray guns.....
Muslim rape gangs....
How anyone thought this problem should be the subject of ridicule and mockery is quite beyond me. - Not attacking you Chris, but the tactics of demonisation of the innocent in order to protect the guilty were already clearly on display. It's tragic that so many fell for it, got carried away with it, and enjoyed the "joke" rather than recognised the real issue at hand.
Edited by andymadmak on Wednesday 3rd September 13:12
carinaman said:
irocfan said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
that fking hideous woman in charge of SS in RotherhamSo, in Rotherham, you can shag a 12 year old, torture her, douse her in petrol and share her like a bag of sweeties as much as you like, but don't you ever consider voting UKIP.
Local social services run by your local New Labour people eh?
I think that Labour, whilst not "pro child abuse" (although I am willing to be challenged on that supposition based on the close links between PIE and senior Labour front benchers) were certainly far more prepared to turn a blind eye to what was going on so long as they continued to secure the majority of the immigrant vote.
Moreover, the left wing tactic of playing the R card early and with considerable vigour against anybody that questioned the policy of mass, uncontrolled immigration or the concept of multi culturalism has been so devastating, for so long, that it effectively shut the Tories and others out of any debate. No one could afford to be branded a racist. Even when communities spoke out they were either ignored or demonised for their words. I've been on here long enough to remember how even some PHers left scorch marks such was their haste to join in on the bashing of Mr Muslamic Raygun man. - Yep, play the man, ignore the message and all can carry on as before.
So the climate was not conducive to protest. Add in the fact that significant chunks of the public sector across all areas of the country are left leaning (particularly social services) and its easy to see how even in Tory controlled areas the left wing policy of promoting immigration and the benefits of multiculturalism for party political gain by wrong headed public sector workers would have been seen as the right thing to do.
In the 80s, it was said that the Tory shame was in accepting that "unemployment was a price worth paying" to fix the country's woes. For the last 40+ years it would appear that the Labour shame was in accepting that mass child abuse was a price worth paying to ensure the continuation of the policies of mass immigration and multiculturalism in order to gerrymander the socialist vote.
Moreover, the left wing tactic of playing the R card early and with considerable vigour against anybody that questioned the policy of mass, uncontrolled immigration or the concept of multi culturalism has been so devastating, for so long, that it effectively shut the Tories and others out of any debate. No one could afford to be branded a racist. Even when communities spoke out they were either ignored or demonised for their words. I've been on here long enough to remember how even some PHers left scorch marks such was their haste to join in on the bashing of Mr Muslamic Raygun man. - Yep, play the man, ignore the message and all can carry on as before.
So the climate was not conducive to protest. Add in the fact that significant chunks of the public sector across all areas of the country are left leaning (particularly social services) and its easy to see how even in Tory controlled areas the left wing policy of promoting immigration and the benefits of multiculturalism for party political gain by wrong headed public sector workers would have been seen as the right thing to do.
In the 80s, it was said that the Tory shame was in accepting that "unemployment was a price worth paying" to fix the country's woes. For the last 40+ years it would appear that the Labour shame was in accepting that mass child abuse was a price worth paying to ensure the continuation of the policies of mass immigration and multiculturalism in order to gerrymander the socialist vote.
edh said:
Not easy to blame the "Asians" for these "abuse gangs"
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5389/justin-welb...
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5398/ex-mi6-chie...
As Suzanne Moore wrote in the Guardian a month or two back, this all happens because the victims are viewed as worthless, so no-one cares about stopping or prosecuting the abuse.
Nobody said that Pakistani men are the only abusers in the land. Your standard and boringly predictable diversion tactics are useless here. http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5389/justin-welb...
http://www.exaronews.com/articles/5398/ex-mi6-chie...
As Suzanne Moore wrote in the Guardian a month or two back, this all happens because the victims are viewed as worthless, so no-one cares about stopping or prosecuting the abuse.
edh said:
No - and that's the problem with this thread. Are there figures to support this?
Yes there are figures to support this. Pakistani males are significantly over represented in child abuse figures... and thats before even they've started to prosecute those being identified at last today. But I suspect you know this already. Just more diversionary bks from you imho. edh said:
I'd rather we fix the problem of child abuse rather than fixate on one group of abusers to the exclusion of others. Police forces across the UK should be making this a priority. Social Workers should be supported when they report these cases. Politicians shouldn't ignore it.
Yeah yeah. Of course we should. Let's just not point to any possible cultural causes eh? Might put a particular group under the spotlight and call into question the merits of uncontrolled immigration from the third world, and we would not want that as it contradicts party policy. And yeah, lets support the Police and Social workers - those would be the same public sector workers who (with few notable exceptions) have been turning a blind eye to this sort of behaviour for decades - all in the name of party political advantage, oops sorry I meant social cohesion, you understand 
edh said:
Rubbish. Do you really believe the Labour party has been using the police as a social tool for the last 40 years?
Yes, actually, I do. The Labour party of the last 40 years has been hell bent on gerrymandering the vote in the country to ensure that they hold on to power as much as possible.Postal vote fraud? - almost exclusively associated with the Labour Party
The inequality of constituencies - thank the Labour party for that (and most recently the Lib Dems)
The use of the R card to suppress any debate on immigration and multiculturalism - a solid Labour party (and left wing) tactic
The use of local authority workers to promote party political agenda at the expense of local tax payers - chalk another one up to the guys with the red rosettes.
Police and Social workers operated in an environment of super sensitivity to Political Correctness. To have your PC credentials questioned represented the kiss of death to your career, so they kept silent about what was happening. Yes the scum did the abusing, but their activities were enabled in part by the culture that the Labour Party fostered. And why did they foster that culture? Well aside from wanting to "rub the right wings nose in multiculturalism " it was because they believed that immigrants were more likely to vote for them. Simple as that. Getting elected meant bringing in more people to vote for you. Of course people would protest, so you simply branded them as racist and concentrated instead on "economic benefits".
Here's what one senior labour advisor confessed to just a few years ago:
daily telegraph article but you could find it in any number of sources said:
The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and "rub the Right's nose in diversity", according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett.
He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its "core working class vote".
As a result, the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic benefits and need for more migrants.
Critics said the revelations showed a "conspiracy" within Government to impose mass immigration for "cynical" political reasons.
So you see, your Labour chums helped to create this problem simply for party political gain. That it was a nasty but unintended consequence of their gerrymandering is clear, but even when exposed to the truth of the matter they still persisted in their arguments instead of doing everything they could to protect the children. He said Labour's relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to "open up the UK to mass migration" but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its "core working class vote".
As a result, the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic benefits and need for more migrants.
Critics said the revelations showed a "conspiracy" within Government to impose mass immigration for "cynical" political reasons.
TTwiggy said:
Haggleburyfinius said:
Birmingham City Council hid links between Asian cabbies and child sex victims for 23 years
http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news...
So, it was 1991, there was a conservative government in power, 'open door' immigration wasn't policy, 'multiculturalism' wasn't a word and PC had yet to go mad. So why the failure to act?http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news...
zuby84 said:
I'm not a single bit like these animals and neither are any of the other Muslims I know. I'm not some type of caped crusader who's job is to go out and look for Muslims/Asians/Pakistani's who are engaging in illegal activity. If I learn of a crime or have any suspicions - I would report it regardless of race just like the next man.
good to hear., but then......zuby84 said:
To squarely lay all the blame at the community as a whole (and in effect all Pakistani's/Muslims) for this is a bit self-defeating IMO. It will only make the community yet more insular and less willing to report crime.
Sooooo, if I read you correctly, the Pakistani Muslim community might feel justified in not reporting child abuse if other communities get a bit angry about the child abuse some of its members commit? The issue for the other communities ( and the reason why SOME people point the figure of shame at the whole Pakistani Muslim community is PRECISELY because it seems that the reputation of your community is more important to you ( the community) than protecting vulnerable kidszuby84 said:
Of course there will be situations where a criminal is "harboured" by family/friends, but name me situations where this isn't the case. Add in the aspect of "sex" and the taboo that may still be present for the women in finding out that their husbands/sons have been sexually abusing someone; it might not be as easy "to go to the police" for fear of losing face/pride as it may be for me or you. There will also be other cultural things at play here.
So now you are constructing a"cultural scenario" in which the PM community might not report abuse. Is this not PRECISELY the point that so many people have been making on these threads? You and others have been flinging the R bomb around as soon as anyone suggests that cultural or religious influences might be playing a part in the actions of these men, and the actions of elements within the community in covering it up...yet here you are basically accepting the same points! zuby84 said:
There are big problems with integration and it needs proper discussion, but I really think that the extremists on both sides are fanning the flames in questionable tit-for-tat battles down to the bottom - that is why I get so uptight about generalisations.
Thats alright Zuby, you just keep focussing on the important stuff like making sure that everyone gets the blame rather than those actually committing the abuse. Just focus on frothing on about the generalisations you perceive are the real issue here rather than dealing with the horrific crimes being committed. Way to go! zuby84 said:
andymadmak said:
So now you are constructing a"cultural scenario" in which the PM community might not report abuse. Is this not PRECISELY the point that so many people have been making on these threads? You and others have been flinging the R bomb around as soon as anyone suggests that cultural or religious influences might be playing a part in the actions of these men, and the actions of elements within the community in covering it up...yet here you are basically accepting the same points!
I'm sorry, it's a bit more complicated than that. One can bring up difficult to raise points without seeming to be racist. They are not mutually exclusive situations. Condoning some type of "collective punishment" for all the community crosses the line I feel; you might disagree however. I have illustrated how to tackle this issue without "being racist" on the previous page. However if you really do become easily offended, accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being an apologist for these "dirty animals" and think that ALL Pakistani's are equally as guilty as the next then in my eyes you're a racist (no one here I hope.) The "we can't say what we want for fear of getting called racist" meme some of you have going on here is quite funny actually. You are able to discuss this in a grown-up manner without being seen to be racist; your meme is an easy way out that leads itself to lazy arguments. For the record; I think this is mainly cultural and not a religious issue. But hey what do I know? As an example a backwater idiot on Pakistan might think that the reason there are so many deaths by drink driving here is because of your religion (after all you drink wine in church!??!). Both you and me know that's not true; it's a culture thing and whilst religion has had it's part to play in culture; the two are often at odds with one another. There's backwater idiots in all countries and this country is no exception.
I suppose, it boils down to just who you think is guilty in this situation. The perpetrators, their family, their friends (all of whom may or may not have known about it) or do we blame every single Pakistani out there and hope the community suffers? There are multiple nuances and intricacies at play here - something which no one person will fully understand.
Gpo's last sarcastic sentence really sums up the kind of people you need to stifle if you are wanting to be taken seriously. If you don't I'm afraid you'll be playing the "reverse racism card" for a long long time.
Edited by zuby84 on Thursday 20th November 10:17
TTwiggy said:
I'm aware of what grooming is and I'm aware of what pimping is. But you've changed tack a bit from the idea that they are forced to take drugs.
Here's a question for you though. On other Islam threads, many posters - and you might be one - insist that all Muslims are essentially the same, and that there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim, due to the fact that 'their book of rules' cannot be interpreted or ignored. So, with that in mind, do you think that these men are adhering completely to these rules, or do you think they might be ignoring them to such a degree that they can no longer be considered Muslim?
As I understand it, ( and I am happy for someone with more knowledge on the subject to correct me if I am wrong) they can still consider themselves as Muslim because the crimes they commit are against girls who are considered to be worthless in the eyes of their religion. - a sort of "it does not count cos they are only white wHere's a question for you though. On other Islam threads, many posters - and you might be one - insist that all Muslims are essentially the same, and that there's no such thing as a moderate Muslim, due to the fact that 'their book of rules' cannot be interpreted or ignored. So, with that in mind, do you think that these men are adhering completely to these rules, or do you think they might be ignoring them to such a degree that they can no longer be considered Muslim?
es" approach to religious interpretation. It may also explain why they are able to act as they do within a community which, by its own admission, is relatively closed and tight knit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34219235
Another bunch sentenced at last.. This time some middle aged white blokes. words fail me
Another bunch sentenced at last.. This time some middle aged white blokes. words fail me
Alpinestars said:
Agreed. Must stop this!
It's a heinous crime and I'd certainly want the authorities to be proactive in managing it. Including who knew what, and why those that did know, didn't report it. I doubt these things generally go under the radar before the police get involved.
Crikey you're brave to express that opinion! you only have to look at this and other threads to see that any suggestion that some in the wider community must have known and clearly did not report what was going on is usually the cue for cries of RACIST! or that you're trying to victimise an entire community for the actions of some men who purely by coincidence happen to be part of that community.....It's a heinous crime and I'd certainly want the authorities to be proactive in managing it. Including who knew what, and why those that did know, didn't report it. I doubt these things generally go under the radar before the police get involved.
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